this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2023
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Muddied? There's this thing called "nuance." I support Donbas independence, I simply don't think it gives Russia the right to invade anywhere outside of Donbas, is that that complicated to understand?
So if you invade another country and as part of their defense of their country, their military enters your country, they're now the aggressors?
Do you apply that principal to all conflicts, or only against enemies of the West?
Huh? When did Ukraine invade Russia?
They've been shelling and raiding the Donbas, which you consider to be independent, for about 9 years.
Surely you are aware of this, it's pretty essential background on a political topic that you are highly opinionated about.
They invaded Donbas, who is allied with Russia.
So let me get this straight: if the US/Canada were hostile with each other, and the people of Alberta, Canada, were separatists that allied themselves with the US, but the Canadian government refused to recognize Alberta's sovereignty, you would support a full-scale, deadly American invasion of Canada?
What an awful analogy that misses any sort of context or nuance about the situation.
That's the problem with liberals like you, that you think things can be understood by imagining it as something superficially similar.
Do you understand what historical materialism is?
To be clear, to be a true analog the province needs to be an ethnic minority which is being targeted by the national government.
Say Alberta was the only majority English speaking province, and Ottawa started putting up statues of a Quebecois terrorist leader from 80 years ago who lead the massacre of 100k English speakers and allied with Hitler during WW2, then they announced that English would be banned from all government facilities including primary schools, and when Alberta tried to secede they sent Nazi paramilitary death squads to harass them and started bombing them daily.
At that point, if the US interceded and went past the Albertan border to attack other military targets in Canada, you would consider that a war of aggression by America against Canada and not them defending their ally, Alberta?
If America's massacring civilians in Ottawa and Toronto? Yes, of course I would. Any sane person would. Stay in Alberta.
You people call yourselves anti-war? I think you're the real liberals here.
What number of civilians have to die before your defensive war is an unacceptable war of aggression now?
Did the Allied counter offensive against the Nazis come in below that number? How about the Union during the US civil war?
You people are pro-war whenever it's convenient for you I guess. Those comparisons are out of line and clearly different as I already explained.
Sounds like you're the one who's pro-war whenever it's convenient for you. When it's not convenient, you just say "that's different!" And refuse to elaborate.
So you support America invading the Middle East when a hostile government oppresses separatists that ally themselves with the US there?
No. Why would I?
Because it's exactly like what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
So?
So what makes it different that you can support Russia's brutal invasion?
How did Russia invade the Donbas by putting troops in it after being invited? Please admit that the answer is that you actually believe the Donbas is Ukraine and don't care about its people's self determination so I can quit asking you this question that you have been dodging for like an hour now.
Show me where I said that.
You are bad faith, intellectually dishonest people.
Speak for yourself, you are the one trying to put words in my mouth.
Oml SHUT UPPPPPPPPPPP
When 99.9% of people who unironically use the word tankie, and think that 'fascist' means 'anything I don't like', also fiercely oppose Donbas independence, and when the one I'm talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer, I'm not about to say I'm in the wrong for asking some clarifying questions.
Also, why doesn't it give Russia the right to invade? Was it wrong for the allies to invade Germany proper during WW2?
I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.
So let me get this straight, you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost? You really think Ukraine is on the same level of Nazi fucking Germany? Honestly I wouldn't even much of a problem if they just invaded Donbas but they're invading the whole fucking country and causing so much death and destruction. How is that justified? How can you call yourself anti-war and anti-imperialism and justify a brutal invasion? Some true colors being shown...
But you are clearly being deceitful, just in this comment you basically admit that you don't actually support their independence.
Look:
The DPR and LPR invited Russia. How could they have "just invaded Donbas."
Please explain
A) The Donbas isn't really independent and you consider it Ukrainian property. (Surely not, you insist that this isn't the case) B) You consider soldiers who are in a foreign country to be invaders regardless of the relationship of the two states? (Can't be this or the US is invading half the planet right this second, including Taiwan) C) ???
Please enlighten us.
This isn't even getting into the point that multiple people made that you've ignored for half an hour, that once you're in a war with someone who wants to conquer you, sending your soldiers into their territory isn't an act of aggression, otherwise the US and the Soviets aggressed against the Nazis, which only an actual Nazi would claim.
(To be clear, I don't think you're a Nazi, just an intellectually dishonest liberal).
You then added a lot of seeming qualifiers.
Please show me where I said this.
Please show me where I said this.
Please show me where I said this.
The true colours of yourself, having to lie about me to make your point.
no, this was why the people's republics of donetsk and luhansk invited military aid, and was the cause behind the Minsk agreements as well as Russia recognizing the Donbas republics