this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
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I agree with everything but voting. Not because we ever have great options, but because sometimes there are terrifyingly bad ones, and while option A might not be at all good, option B is so much worse.
That's why it's called "the lesser of two evils."
The problem is that they aren't two evils, they're two parts of the same evil machine whose functions are mutually dependent and mutally reinforcing
"The United States is also a one-party state, but in typical American extravagance, they have two of them." -Julius Nyerere, first president of Tanzania
You don't seem to know what "lesser of two evils" means.
It doesn't mean "that guy's bad, so the less evil guy is good, actually, and totally deserves our support!"
It means "no matter which one of these assholes wins, I'm fucked, but if I'm lucky the one guy will use lube."
I can't do a damn thing about the two party system. That ship sailed before I was born, and nothing I do as an individual can change it. In fact, I can't see a solution short of possibly violent revolution. If that happens before I'm to old and feeble to help, great. Other wise, I'm fucked no matter who I pick, so I'm sure as shit going to pick the one who just wants to fuck me and not fuck me plus kill my trans neighbor.
I'm sick and tired of being called stupid, gullible, or uninformed just because I can actually see how completely fucked we are. Your shit is great for people who still have hope. My shit is just trying to survive without the Gestapo coming for my neighbors.
So come get me for the revolution. In the meantime, stop calling me stupid for being depressed and practical.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to copy and paste this in reply to some other lemming that thinks I'm a gullible moron instead.
Yes, they do, they were trying to explain to you that it's a scam and only serves to move the nation to the right. Everybody understands "lesser of two evils" we're all browbeaten with it our entire lives.
Under the policies of the greater evil, billions will die due to climate change because corporate profits are more important than human lives to them. Under the policies of the lesser evil, billions will die due to climate change because corporate profits are more important than human lives to them.
It makes no difference, both parties should be opposed and true change can only come through revolution and the abolition of the capitalist class.
Under the policies of the lesser evil, billions will die as you say.
Under the policies and rhetoric of the greater evil, a woman just got brutally murdered in California for the crime of hanging a fucking flag outside her shop.
My point, as I have been trying in vain to make this whole time (but apparently don't have the writing ability to convey) is that if you're fucked no matter what you do, then do the thing that hurts your friends less.
If you have some other course of action that can lead to actual change, then tell me. If you have some other course of action that will help my trans friends today, then tell me. Because billions dying over the next century doesn't mean much to people who get shot, stabbed, or beaten to death today.
I want to believe there's a better way, though, so explain it to me.
The action that leads to security and a better life for yourself and those around you is to organize your community along whatever lines are possible. Unionize with your coworkers, form a tenant's union with your neighbors, physically get out in the street and provide security for LGBT+ events and spaces. Build up parallel structures so that when the government fails, you and those you care about will still have access to food and water, a place to live, and security. Join a political organization that's active and actually does things in your area (one of the communist parties, DSA, or even just Food not Bombs) and do all you can to prepare for a revolution that might never come.
I'll close this by saying that I've been harsh on voting and the electoral system in general during this conversation, and probably too hostile in tone towards you. I apologize for that, because it's sometimes hard to tell when someone is actually acting in good faith, this being the internet and all. Voting isn't something I think is particularly useful, but if you vote for the democrats because they're less openly fascistic, that's up to you. The key is to not let your political activity start and end at voting, because direct action in the real world is by far the best way to achieve positive change. I wish you and yours the best in surviving the collapsing fascist hellhole we find ourselves in.
spoilered giant emoji
I agree with everything but the "it makes no difference" part. Thinking it makes no difference is a privilege a whole shit ton of people can't afford.
They're both horrible. Capitalism sucks. But to say there's no difference? That's just delusional. You're missing the trees for the forest.
Until that "true change" you're talking about happens, I'm not willing to sit by and let women, immigrants, minorities, and LGBTQIA+ people get fucked over even worse than I am. And fuck you if you are.
Roe V Wade was repealed under Biden. The concentration camps at the border are still open. In response to the mass murder of black people by cops, Biden gave more money to the cops. The extermination of trans people is continuing apace at the state level and the dems are doing nothing to stop it. This is all to say nothing about foreign policy, where the US is still complicit with killing thousands if not millions since 2020 through sanctions and facilitating genocide in Yemen. Or lifting all COVID restrictions despite the massive danger still posed.
There is a rhetorical difference between the two parties, but there isn't much evidence of a material difference.
Did you vote for Biden? So you voted and still got roe v wade overturned. You voted and Biden has continued the staggering majority of Trump's inhumane border policies. You voted, and we're one well-timed court case away from the SC overturning gay marriage. Congratulations, the better guy won and all the same shit happened.
Roe v Wade got overturned by a Supreme Court that was stacked by the Republicans during the previous administration you absolute waste. You're literally arguing against your own point.
And again: what fucking part of any fucking word I've typed makes you think I'm happy with the Biden administration.
Oh, wait! You're not actually reading anything I'm saying! You're just shifting goalposts and regurgitating talking points! Holy fuck, it's like talking to a communist version of my mother.
Don't talk to me unless you actually know something. Take your useless idealism elsewhere.
And what is your vote doing to stop that? Anything at all?
I'm reading what you're saying, it's just so dumb and trite it might as well be embroidered on a tea cozy
The fact that I feel the same way about you probably indicates that this is a pointless waste of time on all sides.
In the Biden election? Nothing. Roe was done for as soon as Trump won. It was on life support, but people refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils pulled the plug.
I'm tired dude. I'm just so fucking tired.
Do what you want. You're not gonna accomplish any more than I am so I'm not sure why I cared enough to get worked up. We're all fucked no matter what. Do your little protest vote or whatever the fuck. I'm sure it's gonna do so fucking much.
Why did Trump win? Did it have anything to do with the Clinton campaign choosing a pied pipe strategy where they boosted everything Trump did in the primary and ignored all the less fascist candidates? Do you suppose that continuing to use that tactic is good? The Democrats continue to use their donations to amplify the furthest right candidates in races, and they do not have anywhere near a 100% success rate in defeating those fascists they intentionally amplify. To make the point, money given to the DNC is, in some small proportion, money given to the RNC because the DNC would prefer to amplify worst case scenarios to improve their chances instead of offering GOOD CANDIDATES to entice voters. Supporting that is supporting the rightward slide of everything.
That's one way to see it - the same way the DNC paid pundits and managers see it, since it validates them. Another way to see it is, the Democrats steadfastly refuse to offer a better alternative.
You know that voting for Biden resulted in a worse world, and here you are sneering at anyone who thinks that was a waste.
edit: let's address Obama, too - he had a fucking SC appointment, and instead of doing anything serious to seat a good candidate, he fucking punted on the assumption - the incredibly stupid assumption - that Clinton would win. Obama is why Roe is gone. So your vote for Obama was also a vote for letting Republicans pick a SC candidate. Can't you connect the dots? It doesn't matter how hard you vote for Democrats. They will always let the Republicans win, because they're both paid by the same masters.
one more edit: the distinction is you keep repeating shit everybody knows, whereas I (and other leftists) are trying to explain you to a new concept. It's clear you're not listening, but I'll keep trying until you give up.
I keep repeating shit because you keep not hearing me. You still think I'm trying to defend the Democratic party. You still think I find the Biden administration defendable. If you understand "lesser of two evils" so well, why do you think I'm trying to defend a party I keep calling evil?
So I'll tell you what, I'll deal with the "new concept" part of what you said when you explain that to me. Once I understand why you think I'm defending a position that I haven't once defended, I might be able to move on.
I disagree. You seem to be susceptible to identity politics even though it is quite clear that this "lesser of two evils" is actually hoodwinking you into agreeing with corporatism in the name of empty, symbolic inclusivity that intentionally stops short at extending that woke inclusivity to the poor.
You don't seem to know what "lesser of two evils" means.
It doesn't mean "that guy's bad, so the less evil guy is good, actually, and totally deserves our support!"
It means "no matter which one of these assholes wins, I'm fucked, but if I'm lucky the one guy will use lube."
I can't do a damn thing about the two party system. That ship sailed before I was born, and nothing I do as an individual can change it. In fact, I can't see a solution short of possibly violent revolution. If that happens before I'm to old and feeble to help, great. Other wise, I'm fucked no matter who I pick, so I'm sure as shit going to pick the one who just wants to fuck me and not fuck me plus kill my trans neighbor.
I'm sick and tired of being called stupid, gullible, or uninformed just because I can actually see how completely fucked we are. Your shit is great for people who still have hope. My shit is just trying to survive without the Gestapo coming for my neighbors.
So come get me for the revolution. In the meantime, stop calling me stupid for being depressed and practical.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to copy and paste this in reply to some other lemming that thinks I'm a gullible moron instead.
this is some scary logic if you think about it. Imagine you are a person, who doesn't want to get fucked. Two guys are about to fuck you, even though you don't want it, and you get the option to choose which guys fucks you even though you don't want to get fucked?
oh but the one guy is gonna use lube. To fuck you. The person who doesn't want to be fucked.
that's insane.
establishment, sheepdog neoliberals are out in force on here.
Ugh. I'm not pro establishment. People who are pro establishment think it works. People who are pro establishment have hope
Where the fuck did you get that out of what I wrote? Do I sound hopeful? Or like I think the system in any way works?
Or is that just your canned response when someone disagrees with you and you can't think of a decent comeback?
Is that what you kids call a "cope"? It sounds like a "cope". My generation just calls it "What the fuck are you even talking about?"
I just continue to legitimize the establishment in word and deed.
How. How am I doing that? I'm too tires to fight you, I'm just looking for information at this point.
Any legitimate vote is defacto consent for the system. The biggest stand you can take in a voting booth is spoiling your ballot with obscenities. It is abundantly clear that "harm minimization" doesnt work. Voting for a lesser of 2 evils is still voting for evil.
So your answer is essentially don't vote, or be really rude with your ballot in protest.
Okay. I can do that.
How does that help? What does it accomplish?
The people counting the votes see the dissent. Low voter turn out delegitimizes the system. If only 30% of people voted it is easy to say the system is corrupt and that outside pressure is justified. If 30% of ballots are being thrown out it calls into question the entire system.
If "bad country" reported that 30% of their ballots were discounted the USA would slap sanctions on them and start banging war drums.
Assuming they're not machine counted, fine. What does that accomplish?
Okay. So say the system is "delegtimized" this way. What now? That doesn't change anything as far as I can see. The asshats in power will just⦠keep being in power, because no matter how morally, ethically, or even rationally unjustifiable, the corrupt system is, it's legal.
I'm/not saying you're wrong. I don't think you are. I just don't see what it accomplishes.
In the long run, it means revolution I guess. But in the meantime, how do we stop old ladies from getting murdered over pride flags (to use a recent example)? Cristofascists and those that profit from them winning elections legitimizes their hate. It empowers the twatknuckles that support them. Even dumb crap like calling COVID the "Chinese Virus" spurs on hate crime.
How do we deal with that?
Has voting stopped this?
Organize with other people who want a new system. Convince other people that nothing is going to get better by voting. Make connections with others groups who are doing the same. Build/join a network so that you/they know when critical mass is reached. While you wait for revolution, do what you can in your local community to make people's lives better. This will also help pull people to the cause.
Also be ready to be a partisan because fascism rides electoralism to power so things are likely to get worse before they get better.
The two Party system will only go of you get rid of the "winner takes all" system.
The way we got to that situation you describe is through 3 generations of βthe lesser evilβ over and over and over
Turns out that made everything get more evil, whoβd have thought!
If we want better options we can vote for third party candidates. I have no faith in the system, and a third party candidate will almost never win. But if enough people vote for them it gets them more recognition, which could eventually shift the narrative. Gary Johnson got over 3% of the vote in 2016, and Ross Perot got as high as 19% in the 90s.
Okay. But if the people you vote for can only muster 3% of the vote, how does that help?
I get it in local elections, up to and including State legislature, gubernatorial races, and maybe Congress if they can get a good campaign going. That all makes sense because even if they don't win they get enough attention to attract local media and push discussion among others.
But Senators? The President? Ross Perot was an extreme outlier. The last time a 3rd party presidential candidate got more than 50 electoral votes was 1912 when Teddy Roosevelt ran as a Progressive. In the last century, the highest total electoral votes for a 3rd part went to George Wallace in 1968 running as an American Independent. He got 46 out of 538. Rounding up, that's 9%.
Now, without looking him up, tell me one issue George Wallace ran on in 1968.
So I'm asking: how does it help. If it helps, I'll try. But from where I'm sitting, it's all hopeless. I don't want to feel this way. So please, for the love of sanity, convince me.
I feel this way too. But if we as individuals recognize that the system is going to screw us no matter who is elected, then if we vote it might as well be out of principle. Have you ever shared a fact or opinion or taught someone something, and later noticed that it changed their behavior in some small way? Someone on the internet might see Perot's (or more relevant, Gary Johnson's since it happened only a few years ago) vote count on Wikipedia and it could lead them down a rabbit hole that ultimately gets them motivated to take initiative in the local community. So yeah, I feel you, at the federal level it's hopeless. I think the real change will happen within families, friends, and local communities.
I'll guess ending the Vietnam war...
Based on the year, that was a good guess. But nope. It was pro segregation.
Which brings me back to my point. If:
what's my choice from a moral standpoint? You mentioned Gary Johnson. You couldn't have paid me to vote for him. The Green Party is closer to my value set, but their idiot said anti-vaxxers might have a point (among other takes, not least of which was a seemingly complete misunderstanding of how economics work), so that would have been a no-go too.
And nobody was talking about ending the punative justice system, federal bans on cash bail, demilitarization of the police and radical law enforcement reform, legal protection for LGBTQIA+, ending first past the poll elections, massive education reform, or (outside of the Green party) anywhere near the investment we need in green tech and fighting global climate change.
So I voted for the one that a.) had a chance of winning, b.) wasn't specifically speaking out against most of that stuff and was at least paying lip service to some, and c.) wasn't a cretinous rapist; she was just married to one.
That was voting my conscience. The cretinous rapist won, but that's not on me.
So when you say to vote on principal, okay. I'll do that. I will do my best to vote for people I agree with or, at least, against people who spout shit that makes me want to vomit.
But that's what I was already doing.
Edit: changed out a word for clarity and to reduce repetition.
If you feel like you vote consistent with your principles that's respectable. Since we can't do anything about the shitshow that is the federal government, other than voting I try not to stress out or think about it otherwise. It's a waste of the energy that we can direct to our local communities, which we can do something to improve.
The libertarian party aligns closer to my values, but if the Green party candidate was the only other option I would pick them without hesitation. Regardless of what any politician says, they are self serving and will change their stance when it benefits them. If the green candidate sounded like an idiot with bad policies it wouldn't give her less credibility from the other idiots who wouldn't follow through on their policies anyway. So at least supporting third party candidates changes it from impossible for them to win to incredibly incredibly unlikely, but possible to influence others to open their mind to the idea of something other than the official media narrative.
Somewhat unrelated: what are your issues with libertarian policy? Their general sentiment is consistent with many of the issues you listed. Regarding the green party, I am strongly pro conservation and against rampant consumerism and corporate greed, but I'm not confident that the government will solve the problems without making things worse and wasting tons of money in the process.
I don't think it's at all unrelated.
It is. That's why I used to be a (literally) card carrying member. But at the end of the day, the party has too many places where we differ (gun control, health care, and education are three places where I just can't support the party's platform anymore, for instance). Also, it's got way too many creepy members calling for the abolishment of age of consent laws. I know it's just a vocal few, but it skeeves me.
I'm not confident either, but the free market hasn't done a great job, and other countries have had a great deal of success with regulation. Heck, we've had success with regulation.