this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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With climate change looming, it seems so completely backwards to go back to using it again.

Is it coal miners pushing to keep their jobs? Fear of nuclear power? Is purely politically motivated, or are there genuinely people who believe coal is clean?


Edit, I will admit I was ignorant to the usage of coal nowadays.

Now I'm more depressed than when I posted this

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[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

Oor the ressources could be better spent in renewables, which are available as long as the sun exists, while nuclear will run out of fuel within the 22cnd century.

Also with nuclear Europe is entirely dependent on imports, primarily from Russia and russia-aligned countries. Being pro nuclear in Europe means being pro Putin.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Oor we can do both so that in the middle of winter when there's only 6 hrs of sun (less when cloudy) we can still have electricity without ridiculously sized batteries.

Also uranium is so energy dense it can be mined and refined in Canada or Australia and shipped so, so very easily.

[โ€“] [email protected] -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

False information. There is enough fissionable material to last humans 10s of thousands of years.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Do you all have a source for that?

[โ€“] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

https://whatisnuclear.com/nuclear-sustainability.html

Several other studies estimate 90 thousand years. All of this is Uranium alone.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I don't think I buy it. Like, there is a lot of uranium around the world, but most of it is prohibitively expensive to mine, the mining itself is extremely destructive, Australia has the largest uranium reserves but most of the rest is in the hands of authoritarian fuckwits like China and Russia, society's collapsing into wars and suffering climate catastrophes around the world so the safety of nuclear plants is increasingly in doubt, it takes decades to build them...

Honestly, if we're gonna spend decades on clean energy megaprojects, wouldn't it be better to go with something like a space solar power station which is a lot safer and the rectennas on the surface a lot easier to fix and replace?

[โ€“] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You think mining for solar panels is free or something?

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Out in space, it'll unironically be exponentially cheaper both financially and in terms of he environmental damage caused by surface mining as the decade goes on. We actually could get a lot of material to make mirrors to bounce sunlight around from lunar regolith, and where you have mirrors and a liquid to heat up, like water, you have a solar thermal generator, and up in space, that kind of a generator can provide endless amounts of power.

I feel it'd be a better investment than nuclear and all of its political problems.

[โ€“] [email protected] -3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

And the feddit.de misinformation brigade has arrived.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They're not wrong, I think initial estimates was 500 years, but that will change as more reactors get built.

[โ€“] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

That is indeed very wrong. With extracing Uranium from sea water and recycing fuel in breeder reacots, this goes up to like 90.000 years. And that's just Uranium, other fuels can be explored.

[โ€“] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Theoretically, if everyone was using state-of-the-art designs of fast-breeder reactors, we could have up to 300,000 years of fuel. However, those designs are complicated and extremely expensive to build and operate. The finances just don't make it viable with current technology; they would have to run at a huge financial loss.

As for Uranium for sea-water -- this too is possible, but has rapidly diminishing returns that make it financially unviable quite rapidly. As Uranium is extracted and removed from the oceans, exponentially more sea-water must be processed to continue extracting Uranium at the same rate. This gets infeasible pretty quickly. Estimates are that it would become economically unviable within 30 years.

Realistically, with current technology we have about 80-100 years of viable nuclear fuel at current consumption rates. If everyone was using nuclear right now, we would fully deplete all viable uranium reserves in about 5 years. A huge amount of research and development will be required to extend this further, and to make new more efficient reactor designs economically viable. (Or ditch capitalism and do it anyway -- good luck with that!)

Personally, I would rather this investment (or at least a large chunk of it) be spent on renewables, energy storage and distribution, before fusion, with fission nuclear as a stop-gap until other cleaner, safer technologies can take over. (Current energy usage would require running about 15000 reactors globally, and with historical accident rates, that's about one major nuclear disaster every month). Renewables are simpler, safer, and proven ,and the technology is more-or-less already here. Solving the storage and distribution problem is simpler than building safe and economical fast-breeder reactors, or viable fusion power. We have almost all the technology we need to make this work right now, we mostly just lack infrastructure and the will to do it.

I'm not anti-nuclear, nor am I saying there's no place for nuclear, and I think there should be more funding for nuclear research, but the boring obvious solution is to invest heavily in renewables, with nuclear as a backup and/or future option. Maybe one day nuclear will progress to the point where it makes more sound sense to go all in on, say fusion, or super-efficient fast-breeders, etc. but at the moment, it's basically science fiction. I don't think it's a sound strategy to bank on nuclear right now, although we should definitely continue to develop it. Maybe if we had continued investing in it at the same rate for the last 50 years it might be more viable -- but we didn't.

Source for estimates: "Is Nuclear Power Globally Scalable?", Prof. D. Abbott, Proceedings of the IEEE. It's an older article, but nuclear technology has been pretty much stagnant since it was published.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I am quite sure i know a thing or two about politics that happened during my lifetime and i actively followed. Also i used to be a proponent for nuclear power when i was younger. But unlike the nuclear shills i am willing to accept when a technology is inferior and risky.

[โ€“] [email protected] -3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I am quite sure i know a thing or two about politics that happened during my lifetime and i actively followed

Funny, so do I.

Anyway, believe that "being pro nuclear in Europe means being pro Putin" or what ever absurd things you come up with.

I was here to give my response to OPs question. Discussing energy politics with the average German is as pointless as discussing biology with an anti-vaxxer and I have no interest in it.

[โ€“] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Which is why you immediate derail the conversation by making ad himinen attacks, instead of interacting with the arguments... No suprise you cannot discuss things, because you don't want a discussion in the first place.

[โ€“] [email protected] -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

It's been discussed to death, check the most recent thread about Scholz's comment on [email protected] if you want to read through all of the discussion AGAIN.

But you are right. I'm not willing to have a discussion about it with you. Just like I wouldn't want to have a discussion about astronomy with a flat earther.

Your "nuclear = support russia" comment made it very clear where you stand on the issue and on what basis. So discussion is entirly pointless.

But it wasn't really meant as a personal attack against you, if that comforts you. It's a systematic problem, just like my other comparisons.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

what was that Scholz's comment thread again? The community doesn't list anything from Scholz for me.

[โ€“] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Germany was importing most of its uranium from Kazachstan through Russia. Even during the war and sanctions on other energy ressources taking effect, uranium was shipped, so the plants could keep running. Making our energy dependent on Russia, or trying to keep up the dependency, be it gas or uranium is heavily peddled by pro Putin shills. Funnily those are also often anti vaxxers and other consipracy theorists thanks to russian disinformation. So yes, peddling for more nuclear power remains peddling for Putin.

[โ€“] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Or you could just make deals with Canada or Australia instead.

The Russian supply problem is a very badly made up stawman if you think about it for more than 15 seconds.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Sure, the Canadians just clap twice and the mines put out triple the Uranium they did before. It doesnt take years to expand mines or anything. Also the other sources in Niger or Mali are not at risk of needing replacement, since the region is super stable.. Oh wait shit, that supply is also at risk since there was a coup in Niger just 6 weeks ago.

[โ€“] [email protected] -3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Australia and Canada both have very large amounts of nuclear fuel that are currently unused because of short-sighted comments like this.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Uranium city is coming back baby!