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New Polling Shows Significant Ukrainian Support for Diplomacy to End the War
(www.thenation.com)
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this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024
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What kind of logic is that? He is the one who started the war, as well as he can end it any time.
The US started the war with the coup. This is just an open secret. Obama is on video admitting it. You're watching too much western propaganda.
Like there is any difference. US invading countries overseas, Russia invading neighbouring countries. They're both invaders.
"Both sides are the same."
The difference is that one is happening as a response to the other.
Great logic: "I invade countries because someone invades countries."
And that time will be when Russia wins the war decisively.
You can support Putin blindly all you want but you don't have to be warmongering. It isn't good for any of us.
It's interesting how people who want the war to keep going are calling people who want the war to stop war mongers.
I think everyone wants the war to stop, but only one side can actually do that.
It's pretty clear that everyone does not want the war to stop given that the west has rejected multiple offers to stop the war. You're right that the war can only stop if the west stops blocking the peace process.
Well, Russia has also rejected nany proposals, so that seems rather even.
I was not aware that Ukraine us preventing Russia from retreating out of Ukraine. Do you have a source for that? My understanding was hat Putin was allowed to pull back his troops, ending the war, without asking for permission from Ukraine? Or is it China he needs permission from? I'm confused. Who exactly is bossing Putin around saying he can't withdraw?
It only seems even when you ignore the fact that Russia is winning the war.
That's not what happened. Russia pulled back troops as part of Istanbul negotiations as a show of good faith. You do sound very confused indeed, which is likely why you keep making incoherent statements here. Perhaps spend a bit of time learning about the subject first?
What does the fact that Russia is winning have to do with anything? If anything, it would mean it's even easier to end the war by withdrawing as they would not need to be worried about a counterinvasion?
Putin could end the war tomorrow. He chooses not to. Maybe he chooses not to, because he thinks he is winning? It does not matter. What matters is that he chooses not to end it, killing millions.
If you don't understand what Russia winning militarily has to do with anything there's really no point continuing the discussion.
The west continues to use Ukraine as a proxy to try and weaken Russia, killing millions. The west could stop doing this any time, yet chooses not to.
If the west stopped supporting Ukraine, Ukraine would continue to fight for some time still. And after a capitulation there would likely ne purges killing still more Ukrainians.
So no, Ukraine could not end the killings tomorrow. Putin could. He chooses not to. He chooses the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians. Because he truly does not care.
The war would be over immediately.
There wouldn't.
Yes it could, but you will never accept the reality so the war will keep going and people will keep dying. The blood is on the hands of war mongers such as yourself. People like you are what makes this war possible.
Again, Putin is the only one who can guatanteed end this. You ignore that.
The west abandoning Ukraine in no way guarantees that Russia stops killing Ukrainians, or Ukrainians stop killing Russians.
Is it likely that Ukraine capitulates without Western support? Yes. Is it likely to happen the next day? No. Id it guaranteed to happen at all? No.
Is it likely that Russia stops killing Ukrainians? Yes. Is it likely to stop the next day? No.
The only person who can end this within a day, Putin, chooses not to, and instead chooses the deaths of millions.
You keep mentioning how the west could end this, but are completely silent about the fact that so could Putin, and with much less bloodshed.
I've addressed this repeatedly, and you're the one ignoring what you're being told because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
Ensuring that more Ukrainians die without changing the outcome of the war is not helping Ukrainians.
You keep repeating this, but it's a blatantly false statement as we both know.
Both Russia and the west have exact same power to stop the war immediately. Russia has repeatedly made proposals to stop the war that the west rejected. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this shows that you're not arguing in good faith.
You are contradicting yourself. Can russia stop the war immediately, or do they need the permission of the west to do so? Both can't be true simultaneously
I'm not contradicting myself. The west can stop the war immediately, and Ukraine needs permission from the west to do so. This is a proxy war between NATO and Russia where NATO is using Ukraine to do the fighting.
I asked about Russia, not Ukraine.
Can Russia end the war immediately, or does Russia need the permission of the west to do so?
Here's the chief of NATO openly admitting why the war started, but you keep on lying here if that makes you feel better.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
That has literally nothing to do with what I just wrote? I said nothing about the reason for the war.
Again, can Russia end the war immediately, ss you claimed, or do they need permission from the west, like you also claimed?
You are claiming that the war is between Russia and Ukraine, while the reality, as Stoltenberg admits is that it's a war between Russia and NATO. Ukraine is the party that needs permission from the west to stop the war.
Can you explain to me why Russia would stop the war that Russia is currently winning?
You are avoiding my question. Can Russia end the war immediately, or do they need permission from the west? Yes or no. If you do not answer, I will just assume thst you agree with me that Russia can end the war unilaterally, and Putin chooses not to (because he chooses not to, as "winning" is more important thsn millions of lives).
You are avoiding my question. Why would Russia end the war that Russia is winning?
To avoid the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians. I've answered multiple times.
So, now we agree that Russia could end the war immediately, regardless of what the west does, but chooses not to, leading to the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians.
The actual losses for Russia amount to around 57k as a western source that shows its methodology reports. So, not sure where these millions are coming from https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng
Meanwhile, nowhere did I say that Russia can't stop the war. What I said is that it makes absolutely no sense for Russia to do that. The war started because of NATO expansion eastwards as Stoltenberg has openly admitted. If Russia stops the war, then NATO will just continue doing what it was doing previously in Ukraine. All the effort and all the lives lost will have been for nothing. Russia has to win this war decisively.
Also, you keep talking about Putin as if he runs the country in dictatorial fashion. That is a perspective divorced from reality. At this point vast majority of people in Russia support the war because they now understand that the west is their enemy. They saw western reaction towards Russians after the war started, and they can plainly see now that the west viscerally hates Russians. Putin is considered a moderate, and the main criticism of Putin in Russia today is that he's being too cautious and not showing enough force.
What will happen in the end is that Russia will win and dictate terms, the only question is how many more people have to die before westerners accept that.
You answered yourself where the millions come from.
You agree that Putin could stop the war, but can not see why it would make sense to not kill millions. That requires a particular disregard for life typical of Russia, and then russians act surprised when people hate them.
I didn't, if you look at the link provided, Russian casualties have actually been going down. Apparently you don't have a first clue regarding the subject you're attempting to debate here. Let me explain a few basics to you. Most of the casualties in this war (around 80%) come from artillery fire, and Russia outguns Ukraine by a factor of around 10 to 1. Ukraine has at this point run through much of its professional army that was motivated and well trained, they're now increasingly relying on conscripts with little training, and no motivation to fight. As the professional and motivated core of the army continues to shrink, an inflection point comes where the whole army starts to collapse. This is what happened to Germans at the end of WW2. This is what's already starting to happen in Ukraine now. Armies don't fight to the last man, once the collapse starts, it progresses very rapidly where the cohesion of the army falls apart.
Also, I notice you have problems with reading comprehension. Because I told you the opposite. Putin can't in fact stop the war because that would be an incredibly unpopular move politically in Russia.
I've been explaining the same thing to you over and over in many different ways here. All you do is just keep regurgitating the same few points you've memorized. You're not engaging in any actual discussion here, so I'm going to stop. Feel free to believe whatever you like, but I do hope that once the war ends you'll do some self reflection and ask yourself what was achieved by prolonging the conflict.
If we go back to the actual article, and the sources it cites, it looks like the will to fight is still there, so what you say does not appear to be true.
Perhaps you care to provide sources to the contrary?
Similarly, you say Putin can't stop the war, because he is afraid of the Russian people. Is it not also true that stopping the war is incredibly unpopular in the west too? Is Putin as weak as the western leaders? I thought he had massive support from the population and that the people respects his opinion?
Of your entire understanding of the conflict is based on a single article then I see where you're coming from.
It isn't, and I did not say so. But I'll go ahead and use the same logic as you, and conclude that your understanding of the war is not based on any information at all, since you have not mentioned a single source so far.
Conclude whatever you like.
You have the mindset that will be the reason for the end of the world. You literally say "the strong can do whatever the fuck they want", how is that not warmongering?
It's absolutely hilarious that you're claiming that this hasn't been the norm already. The west has invaded Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan just to name a few countries in recent years. The only reason you're upset now is that it's not your side that's doing it.
The people who are going to be the reason for the world to end are always the ones who want the wars to keep going. Especially wars where the outcome is obvious to anyone with a functioning brain.
So anyone who oppose you is a capitalist western dog is it?
It's equally wrong to be sided with the West who invade countries just like to be sided with Russia or China who invades countries or persecute minorities. But since I don't like tyrants, I must be Western.
The norm: "Let's kill each other". Yeah, that looks like something normal. Totally.
I just hope you live long enough to see the second Soviet dissolution. Maybe that day you'll understand how bad warmongering is.
I'm just pointing out the sheer bullshit your argument is premised on. The west has been going on a rampage across the globe since USSR fell, and now here you are doing hand wringing about might makes right when a non western country does what's already been normalized claiming it would be the end of the world.
That's the world US created under its hegemony since USSR dissolved.
The only one doing warmongering here is you. I want the war to end. I love how you aren't even trying to be coherent here.