The name dropping in Oppenheimer is intense. I recognised a load of them from studying maths and the characters were deriding maths for not being physics. Crazy that they could have such contributions to a field they didn't even respect
this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2023
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I just saw the movie last night and felt the exact same way. I said the first 45 minutes were basically just eye candy for nerds lol. Going through all the famed scientists of that era whom we grew up revering.
Physicists treating their field as license to hand-wave other fields? Yeah, totally unrealistic.
What other fields?
Case in point.
Maths isn't science but just a tool used in proper science...
A disputable opinion but one that was widespread back then (see: no Nobel Prize for mathematics for example...)
Haven't seen the film yet so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying comparing physics to math in that way is like comparing apples to the molecules that make up apples. Physics is applied mathematics used to attempt to explain the physical workings of the universe. You can't have physics with no math.
And this is coming from an engineer, who thinks we're superior to both!
Sadly, they are Thanos for people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki
That's one of the risks of kicking off a war.
Close to the end of the war, Japan -- which had made pretty extensive use of biological weapons against China -- was working on also hitting the US with biological weapons. We were far enough away that it would have been difficult, but where they had been able to employ biologicals, in Asia, they did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PX
Operation PX, also known as Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night, was a planned Japanese military attack on civilians in the United States using biological weapons, devised during World War II. The proposal was for Imperial Japanese Navy submarines to launch seaplanes that would deliver weaponized bubonic plague, developed by Unit 731 of the Imperial Japanese Army, to the West Coast of the United States.
That being said, Japan wasn't even the expected target of the Manhattan Project. Germany would have been, but was defeated via conventional force prior to the project reaching completion.
I wonder why they didn't drop the bombs in more remote locations first to minimize victims and send a message... Estimates are that 130k to 225k people died, the vast majority were civilians that had no influence over their country being at war...
Because it would have been less-effective, I expect. The targets were chosen because they had military industry and had not yet been destroyed via conventional firebombing, which had already been done at mass scale in other places.
I think that it's important to understand that the atomic bombs were simply seen as something of a significant multiplier in the existing bombing campaign. One bomber with an atomic bomb could maybe do what a thousand bombers with conventional weapons might...but there were, in fact, thousand-bomber raids happening. That is, cities were already being set afire. The Manhattan Project simply permitted doing so with a significantly-lower resource expenditure.
EDIT: Also, to be clear, the US fully intended to ramp up to mass production and employment of atomic bombs, dozens a month, once production could be brought up, and would have done so had the surrender not occurred.
Today, partly because of (significantly more powerful) thermonuclear weapons and because we know that the first two bombs did result in a surrender, the first two atomic bombs maybe look like something of a clear bookend to the war, but that's for us in 2023; in 1946, they would have been another step -- if a significant one -- of World War II's large-scale bombing campaigns, something that had been growing for years.
The atomic bombings were war crimes, but so were the many previous fire-bombings of Japanese and German cities. The US was doing everything it could at that point to end the war.
Honestly, I'm of the opinion that the atomic bombings were legitimate, but the firebombings in Japan were mostly terror bombing and war crimes. The atomic bombs were indiscriminate in their destruction, but pointed towards legitimate military/infrastructure targets.
I'm of the opinion that fascists don't get to cry about the consequences of their actions, even if their former victims have become monsters themselves.
Arthur "Bomber" Harrington has an immortal quote to the effect:
"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else and no one was going to bomb them."
You can see echoes of this mentality in Russia today, as they cry and moan about Ukraine having the sheer GALL to drone strike military targets in Russia. If one wanted to get particularly spicy, you might even note the actions of America in the Middle East prior to 9/11 and the reactions afterwards.
Ultimately, the great evil of the atom bombs wasn't their use to ensure a total surrender, it was throwing away that total capitulation by allowing the continued existence of the Imperial family and not executing every Imperial Army officer above the rank of lieutenant for their crimes in their conquered territories and against American POWs.
That's an odd take, the atomic bombings were fire bombings intended to destroy cities, unless you think the US didn't realize that would happen? The US was quite capable of destroying individual facilities. Is it legitimate to destroy a facility and everyone who works there? And their homes? And their families, and their kid's schools and everyone who goes to those schools and their doctors, and the guy who sells them snacks on the way home and his family and all his in laws and their houses and their doctors.
Seems a bit excessive.
That’s an odd take, the atomic bombings were fire bombings intended to destroy cities, unless you think the US didn’t realize that would happen?
The atomic bombings were not fire bombings. Fire bombings, as the name suggests, use incendiaries.
The US was quite capable of destroying individual facilities. Is it legitimate to destroy a facility and everyone who works there? And their homes? And their families, and their kid’s schools and everyone who goes to those schools and their doctors, and the guy who sells them snacks on the way home and his family and all his in laws and their houses and their doctors.
Seems a bit excessive.
You know what the accuracy was for daytime bombing in WW2, even with fancy American bomb sights?
A mile.
A. Mile.
In Europe, British and American approaches differed because British bomber command put a greater emphasis on terror bombing against the Germans, while the American bomber command in Europe put a greater emphasis on industrial targets. You know what both approaches shared? Absolutely blanketing wide swathes of an area with ordnance because there was no guarantee of hitting a target otherwise.
Given that low level of accuracy available, I don't find arguments regarding collateral damage to be particularly compelling. No, what made US firebombing in Japan horrid was that American bomber command in Asia oriented quite explicitly towards attacking civilian targets. Incendiary testing in US trials was done against mock-ups of Japanese civilian housing, not industrial targets, even.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were chosen as targets because of their military and industrial importance. However cruel and indiscriminate an atomic bombing may be, it was not simply pointed at civilians in the hopes of murdering as many as possible, unlike the fire bombings.
This is historically ignorant. The cities were chosen for their psychological effect.
Atomic bombs are incendiaries. Starting fire miles away is one of the key effects of the bomb. They can create firestorms.
You have limited supply of bombs, you go after targets. You don't waste them.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets.
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Now imagine how the japanese are seen by the people of China, Korea, Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Sumatra, Singapore, Indonesia and Papua who were still living under japanese occupation and terror in August 1945. Who died in droves far greater than the Hiroshima or Nagasaki victims, with up to 25 million casualities. Whose death rates increased towards the end of the war, and for whom a delay of the capitulation of the japanese by a few weeks or, god forbid, months would have meant millions of deaths.
Who, mind you, did not support the japanese government, did not support the japanese war, had no way of stopping it except for fighting for their lives, yet still had to suffer from it. Unlike the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who could have prevented the japanese government from taking power, who could have striked and fought against their militaristic government, who could have sabotaged the war efforts of their government in a war that was lost anyways - yet they never did.
"Unlike the people" and their school-aged kids, and their babies, and the old grandmas. Don't let them off they hook, they could have taken down a military dictatorship that dominated East Asia if they felt like it.
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You think the Japanese give a fuck who built the bomb?
I'm just worried that instead of ending second waorld war, we started a new one.
*looks into the camera*
A cold war.
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Unironically yes
Dude got his autograph on Tom Sawyer.
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