this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2023
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Project Mainline delivers key OS updates through Google Play β€” here's how it's changing

top 17 comments
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[–] [email protected] 28 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'll never understand why typical android updates are tied to your carrier and reliant on them for distribution.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

But where's the money in that? How does AT&T holding back a major update for months at a time help them make money? It makes me never want to buy a phone from them again more than anything.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

I think the point they're making is that updates don't help sell more phones, and selling new phones with contracts is how they make money

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Carriers likely pay google under the table to implement it that way so they can hold out updates on people and make them buy new phones. They also likely want to make sure all their crap spyware they force on your phone is working the best it can on the latest version so they can get as much of your data as well. Sometimes that might mean holding off a security patch until they themselves have wormed their way around it.

Yes this is all hypothetical, but the money there is real.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

That and also pay the manufacturers under the table to not support bootloader unlocking, ensuring that the phone is ewaste after you're done with it And forcing you to get a new one

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It's a combination of historical, technical and liability reasons. Even though wireless is built on standards (GSM, etc) implementations by vendors don't always conform, have defects, or need additional configuration to make it work well on a particular network comprised from particular base equipment. Does Qualcomm test every one of their their modems with every firmware version on every base station from every vendor? Does MediaTek? They don't and so many issues only show up once you encounter those combinations at the carrier end. When a carrier sells a phone with service on their network, they want to be damn sure it works or they'll be getting a volume of angry calls or worse (think implications of failed 911 calls). In order to ensure that doesn't happen, carriers test every device and every firmware version for it on their network. A lot of vendor hardware/software defects are found precisely during this stage. That's because these days the software/firmware is just as important for the proper functioning of the device-network combination. Therefore carriers want to keep tight control over device/software/firmware combos and only sell what they've tested and certified as working correctly. Ultimately carriers hold the keys to their network and they can block any device/group of devices that might cause problems for the network, others subscribers or expose them to liability. This is why updates that can affect any of the above are gated by carriers. This used to be extraordinarily strict prior to 2010. We made specific device software versions for Verizon, AT&T, etc. Remember when every phone had a carrier logo on it? That's when that was. After 2010, manufacturers and software vendors gradually began decoupling the carrier-related pieces like modem firmware and services, telephony, emergency, etc from the higher level software like calculator apps and through.. arduous lobbying and discussions with carriers vendors proved to carriers that they don't need to vet every little thing that changes in a phone from one version to the next. And so gradually we had more and more things not having to pass carrier testing. That said, OS updates which change the aforementioned critical components are still gated by carrier testing and Google can't do shit to get past them. They have no leverage as they wouldn't be liable if something goes horribly wrong.

When I say carriers, think large North American carriers and large European ones. Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, etc. Small carriers that don't have much resources don't do as much testing and rely more on the diligence of the vendors on the phone and base station ends to have things work well. They also benefit from fixes of defects found during carrier testing conducted by the big ones.

Source: Am a software guy that used to work at BlackBerry during the BBOS, BB10 and Android days.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I'm afraid this will end up the same way as Treble, and other similar efforts. On paper, this is a fantastic idea. In practice, most vendors will probably block these, or change the core distribution to the point where these are irrelevant, like Samsung or any Chinese market phones do. Not to mention that modifying anything on your device is becoming exceedingly difficult, depending on which vendor it's from

[–] [email protected] 28 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Treble has become a requirement for Google certification, though, and it's on almost every phone out there today. They can choose to rip Treble out of Android, but then they would never be able to get Google Play on their phones, and that's a necessity in most countries.

Some of the Treble implementations may be buggy, but it has been a huge improvement to the custom ROM scene at the very least. Sure, hardware that integrates with a manufacturer's ROM doesn't work with generic software, but that's to be expected, and it makes for a much easier jumping off point than getting all of Android and its drivers and binaries to work every time a new device comes out.

Chinese phones need to be disconnected entirely from Google for obvious reasons. However, GSIs have been found to work on some Chinese devices from brands that also target western audiences. In a sense, GSIs provide you with more freedom if you import cheap no-name Chinese devices.

Project Mainline is mostly intended for manufacturers to provide more updates, and for Google to take over the responsibility of updating stuff when manufacturers refuse to do it, like most Android critical people want Google to. Vendors have the choice between supporting it or going full Amazon/Huawei with their own cloud services and app store.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Treble is pretty good IMO, I'm using a device with LineageOS GSI, and it works pretty much perfectly. I do wish it was officially supported by LineageOS, as updating requires a PC right now, but it is pretty usable and a better alternative than using the Stock ROM.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Interesting, is there no recovery image available for your device at all? You don't specifically need LineageOS for a working TWRP build to exist, and TWRP can flash .img files for you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Last I checked, TWRP couldn't flash logical partitions that make up where the GSI is patched, but it was requested, maybe something changed? Idk, the guy who created the guide on how to flash GSI on my device's XDA forum mentioned this issue a while ago and recommended flashing through ADB.

Actually, I think the issue is that when I flashed my device, TWRP couldn't unencrypt or something, it's been a while and I know I should start the process from scratch

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

I've never had to flash GSI images myself, thankfully, but I do regularly use the image flashing option to reinstall Magisk after a ROM update. Those images work fine for me.

Ah, encryption and TWRP is always something. It usually works, but sometimes it doesn't, and there's no fix when it breaks. Broken TWRP decryption has causedme a factory reset or two but with OrangeFox the decryption stuff all seems to work flawlessly.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Since they are adding it as a part of Google Play Services and Google certifies Google Play compatible devices, hopefully this will be a requirement if they want to include Google's playstore.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

A lot of it is actually already required. I can't find any comprehensive list, but each new release since Android 10 (when modular components / Mainline became a thing) adds new components and makes some older ones mandatory for Google Play devices.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Whaddya mean the same way as Treble? Treble works and is used on Samsung or any other Google Play enabled device. If a phone shipped with Google Play, you're getting app updates via Google Play, then you're also getting Treble system updates.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

What about lineage os?