this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023

19 points (95.2% liked)

Technology

33632 readers

195 users here now

This is the official technology community of Lemmy.ml for all news related to creation and use of technology, and to facilitate civil, meaningful discussion around it.

Ask in DM before posting product reviews or ads. All such posts otherwise are subject to removal.

Rules:

1: All Lemmy rules apply

2: Do not post low effort posts

3: NEVER post naziped*gore stuff

4: Always post article URLs or their archived version URLs as sources, NOT screenshots. Help the blind users.

5: personal rants of Big Tech CEOs like Elon Musk are unwelcome (does not include posts about their companies affecting wide range of people)

6: no advertisement posts unless verified as legitimate and non-exploitative/non-consumerist

7: crypto related posts, unless essential, are disallowed

founded 5 years ago

MODERATORS

[email protected]

Huawei's New Mystery 7nm Chip from Chinese Fab Defies US Sanctions (www.tomshardware.com)

submitted 10 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

24 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 24 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

Until we get more data/testing from people outside the country, I am going to remain skeptical that it isn't just another chip they re-engraved and changed what your computer will say it is. Doesn't matter which country it is, I don't trust the data unless a neutral 3rd party from outside the country is able to fully confirm whether the claims are true or false.

I'm also skeptical since they had absolutely no PR about it before a US official went over and that (unless it's changed or I am misremembering) Huawei didn't even put out any official stats on the chip itself and instead let the tech bros in country do it instead (which to me screams a little bit of a red flag).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Why did anyone think otherwise?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Because manufacturing super high tech chips is extremely hard and complicated and basically only a couple companies in the world can do it and they also depend on parts and technology from other companies all over the "western" world. China didnt have anything near this capability. It requires advanced research and knowhow on a million different technologies. So unless China does extensive industrial espionage(which they are trying to do), it's gonna take them like 10+ years to start producing anything relatively modern without needing any external parts/help.

In any case, it remains to be seen if it is actually 7nm. With a new cold war ramping up, China is trying to become self-reliant as much as possible.

[+] [email protected] -32 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Let me summarise your point above: "the yellow people are too stupid to make chips. If the are doing it, they must be stealing from smart Westerners."

Just how racist are you?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Neither Europe nor the US can make chips like this, thats why they are trying so hard to convince TSMC to make a chip fab in their territories. Does this mean that white people are too stupid to make chips? No, they just cant atm and they arent willing to invest the infinite time and money it would take to reach that level, especially since their ally Taiwan(TSMC) is already making the most advanced chips in the world.

China on the other hand needs to become more self reliant, especially with the new Cold War escalating. So they have to do it. And they are doing it. But it will still take a lot of time and money to be able to manufacturer modern high end chips.

TSMC is taiwanese, which is "yellow" people. Why are you trying to spin this as a racist thing? Literally the best people in the world manufacturing chips are taiwanese(han). Why would anyone think that the chinese, who are basically the same ethnicity(han), wont be able to make advanced chips because of racial reasons?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Agree 100%. Can you explain the addition of Han to the end? I'm unfamiliar with this nomenclature.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Han Chinese 漢人/漢族 is the name of the ethnic group which originated from mainland China, and are the most dominant in mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan.
OP here is probably trying to differentiate between Chinese (nationality) and Han Chinese (ethnicity) because although people in Taiwan are of Han Chinese ethnicity, they generally don't like to be called Chinese (nationality) and prefer to be called Taiwanese (nationality, though the official name of the country is Republic of China, but that's another story).

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago

"Western" in this case includes Korea and Taiwan.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Except that's not his point. The US currently can't make this shit either.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Come on, Intel!!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

I think they refer to the lithography machines, which are built by ASML in the Netherlands.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'm usually one to attack the "china bad" crowd but the OP isn't wrong unfortunately.

It requires immense connections throughout the world (namely Netherlands for etching and USA for schematics).

The argument is honestly "the yellow people are so disliked via western influence that the other white counties won't sell them tech to make chips"

Chips = military power; and clearly the west doesn't like the idea of helping China. Is that right? Nah. Was OP being racist? I don't think so tbh.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

But it's not "yellow people," we also don't sell that tech to Russia, and they certainly aren't "yellow," and Korea and Taiwan are of the same general ethnic group as China, and they lead the world in chip manufacturing.

There's absolutely nothing racist going on here, it's just that everyone involved in core chip-making tech doesn't trust China. That's it, it's pretty simple. And China has earned that reputation by stealing IP from other countries, supporting repressive regimes (e.g. N. Korea), allying with aggressors (e.g. Russia), and bullying smaller countries (e.g. Taiwan, Philippines, etc).

It's not the Chinese people that anyone is worried about, it's the government of China. It really is that simple.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

Holy straw man Batman!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

It's not stupidity. You need to invent the tools that are needed to make the tools that make the tools that make the tools that make the thing. China still hasn't independently invented most of those tools yet, so they've been relying on finished tools from other countries. Being smart doesn't wipe away the decades of research needed to make something. We all expect China to eventually be able to make an equivalent tool, but they're working with a handicap of inexperience which was expected to take years of dedication to overcome. Which is why everybody is skeptical that China made this independently without outside help or knowledge.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

sinophobia mostly, think people who breathlessly watch the "china will collapse in 2 hours!?!?!" clickbait videos every time it pops up in their recommended and believe it every time

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It's not sinophobia. Neither the EU nor the US can manufacture high tech chips, which is why they are sucking TSMC's dick in order to make some chip fabs in their territory. It's extremely hard and expensive to develop(or start developing) this. It's literally the most technologically advanced thing humans make.

And even TSMC relies on western companies all over their world for the manufacturing of their tools and tech. But since China does not have that luxury, they have to make everything from scratch and that is extremely hard. I am still not convinced China can make 7nm but remains to be seen.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Any criticism of the CCP = sinophobia.

You people are worse than those that call everything racist.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Strawman. Hyperbole. Whataboutism. Ad hominem. Ad absurdum. Anecdotal evidence. Citations needed. Fact check pending. Illegal right turn. Curb your dog. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. smuglord

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

china under the bed US scared

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

In another Global Times publication, Chinese analysts labeled N+2 as SMIC's 5nm-class production node about a year ago.

Yet, there are independent proofs from TechInsights that SMIC produced MinerVa Semiconductor Bitcoin mining ASICs on its 7nm-class N+1 technology.

Meanwhile, SMIC's Twinscan NXT:2000i deep ultraviolet (DUV) lithography scanners can make chips on 7nm and 5nm technologies, so that the company may have developed a 5nm-class fabrication process.

Huawei's HiSilicon is China's most successful chip designer that has used to adopt TSMC's leading-edge fabrication technologies.

After Huawei lost access to American technologies in 2020, HiSilicon could no longer work with the world's largest contract maker of chips, and it is believed that the parent company helped SMIC to advance its fabrication processes.

Huawei has not commented on the matter, and even state-ran Global Times does not explicitly say that the HiSilicon Kirin 9000S uses SMIC's 5nm-class process technology but prefers to call the information a rumor.

The original article contains 574 words, the summary contains 148 words. Saved 74%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

China is getting too good at chip manufacturing. That scares imperialists.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Lol, what can the Chinese make that is current with American and Korean designs? Taiwan is #1 chip maker in the world and it isn't the same Chinese as the mainland. The best die sizes the mainland can muster is 10nm, which was 3 generations ago by Intel/AMD standards.

And what company in China can make 7nm? Huawei outsources it's chip fab to SMIC now that TSMC gave them the boot. SMIC can't make anything smaller than 7nm but scaling it for them is hard because their process doesn't use EUV and other next gen western techniques. China is starting from behind and has no chance of catch up because they don't have the tech or knowledge for how to build it.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago

That's cool, so they are almost not 5 years behind everybody else, unless their 7nm node is actually like Intel's, ie. Bigger number but same density as the competition