GoodEye8

Of course you can't, because there's nothing you can provide except your belief that it is the way you want to believe.

You're literally proving my point. You've added nothing to factually prove the coup, you're adding assumptions to make the fact fit the narrative. Also Yats is not the leader of the Fatherland party, he used to be there but moved to People's front in 2014.

So, theyre all Russian talking points but theyre also all supported by evidence?

As if to prove my point... I said they're statements made around certain known fact, facts that don't really prove the statement. Like the "coup". Fact is that there was a discussion between Nuland and Pyatt, which proves US was in talks with the opposition. But the fact doesn't shine a light on the extent of their talks, including if they were plotting a coup or how much Ukrainians listened to them. To claim it was a coup you have to believe it was one topic of the discussions and the Ukrainians listened.

This is a thing that annoys me about liberal conceptions of bias. Everything is biased, the question is how factual things are.

I don't have problem understanding that things are biased. It's just odd how western narrative get criticism but Russian narrative is seemingly taken without question.

Yes, this is what we call discussing who should be in the puppet government. You'll note that they kept the moderate "we should be nuetral between the US and Russia" organizers out and brought the nazis in.

You just said the question is how factual things are, so factual proof that nazis were brought in? Because from the leak they were actually talking to keep ultranationalists like Tyahnybok out.

While it should go as without saying I think it's pretty hard to take it that way when the following statements get made a) The legitimate Ukraine government was overthrown in a NATO croup, b) Ukraine government is a neo-nazi government, c) DPR and LPR are legitimate countries and d) NATO started the war in Ukraine. Every single one of those is a Russian state propagated talking point, all of them made around nuggets of facts (like the leaked chat where some US officials were discussing who should or shouldn't be in the new government) but ultimately warped into something that can't definitely be proven true or false. Thus whoever spreads those talking points wants to believe those statements as true, which begs the question of why to believe they're true.

there was no question about it left to the Ukrainians.

Except for the nearly a million Euromaidan protesters and half the country in support of protest, with the support rising after the supposed "coup"? The very protest that set the "coup" in motion because Russia used the corrupt pro-russia prime minister to strike down the pro-eu deal. Seems to me like Ukrainians wanted this "coup".

Could say the same to you. Have you checked Russian media to see if you're talking out of your ass or not?

Lol, no response to this one. Spoiler, current articles are about price increases, mainly food, with the two big reasons for the price increase being sanctions (pre sanctions stockpiles running out) and the depreciation of ruble (currency rates influencing the import cost)

And back with the vagueness.

We already established demands. The last two comments we've explicitly discussed demands. But don't worry, I've got you. Here's the official draft that we first discussed. Bunch of legal jargon so I'll condense it to some key points. I'll also add the points you brought up afterwards (the nazis and DPR and LPR)

• No NATO forces from NATO members before 28 May 1997 may be deployed into any NATO member state that joined after 27 May 1997 unless Russia allows it.
• No deployment of intermediate- and short-range missiles that could reach into Russia.
• No more NATO expansion, including Ukraine.
• All NATO members cannot conduct any military activity in other countries in eastern Europe (including Ukraine), South Caucasus and Central Asia.
• De-nazification of Ukraine
• Recognition of DPR and LPR

Then, are the demands based in facts? You also seem to flip flop on whether that is true.

No idea where you get that considering I've pretty consistently said that they're unreasonable (with the exception of the nazi and DPR/LPR thing), which pretty much implies they're not based in facts.

And after that tell me why or why not can NATO validate and concede on those demands, and whether they’re partly to blame for this war.

Somehow I have to make your points? Whatever, lazyass.

No NATO forces from NATO members before 28 May 1997 may be deployed into any NATO member state that joined after 27 May 1997 unless Russia allows it.

NATO cannot segregate itself so obviously they can't comply with this.

No deployment of intermediate- and short-range missiles that could reach into Russia.

This one is the most reasonable one, but even that is not that clear cut. Some of those missiles are a part of the missile defense system that NATO won't remove so that's not a fulfillable demand. But NATO has given Russia a chance to come to an agreement here. Back in 2011 Biden visited Moscow to discuss a missile defense co-operation which Russia turned down. Similarly there was the IMF treaty (which also covers some of the missiles in question) that got scrapped under the pretense that Russia wasn't complying with the treaty. So one could make the argument that Russia themselves creates a situation where they could make such demands. Do you need sources for those or are you capable of googling those two things yourself? Eh fuck it, IMF wiki and missile defense co-operation that never got off the ground.

All NATO members cannot conduct any military activity in other countries in eastern Europe (including Ukraine), South Caucasus and Central Asia.

It's again one of those things that seems reasonable except for the fact that NATO countries that are in the EU literally cannot accept this. For instance Georgia is planning to join the EU. If Georgia joins the EU then they get protected by EDA which means it gets protected by the same countries that would here have to agree to never protect Georgia. It's an obvious conflict of interest for EU and thus by extension also for NATO.

De-nazification of Ukraine

Not sure what more NATO could do there. You don't seem to be aware that the US hasn't provided funds to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion since 2017. The biggest NATO member doesn't support the Nazi battalion. I really don't see what else NATO could do besides wag their finger at Ukraine who claims their battalion is not longer a nazi battalion. But I'll be happy to concede this point because I seriously doubt NATO doing something about the nazis would've deterred Russia. It didn't even make it into the first round of demands.

Recognition of DPR and LPR

I'll also concede this point mostly for the same reasons as the previous one. But also because Russia could've just walked into DPR and LPR like they did in Crimea and say "this is mine now". Nothing really happened over Crimea, nothing would've happened over those two regions either. The acknowledgement of those regions wouldn't have prevented the war, Russia wanted to take a bigger bite.

Since those are the only ones you cited right now (because your memory is very wonky), focus on Azov and the two independent republics.

How about no. Those two are the least relevant in the list of demands, they weren't even in first list of demands.

You have a whole week to write because I won’t reply until next Saturday, since I’m no longer cooking. Don’t get too lonely.

Don't worry. I'll pester you whenever you're online.

How long are we going to talk in circles? I have been explaining how none of the demands are justified. Like you said Russia can demand whatever it wants, but whether those demands should be met depends on how reasonable or justified they are. It should be apparent that what NATO could've done to de-escalate also follows the pattern of satisfying reasonable demands. If none of the demands are reasonable there's nothing NATO can do to de-escalate, right? So, aside from the dissolution of Azov and recognizing LPR and DPR as legitimate (both of which are arguable whether NATO could even do something or if meeting those demands even matter considering they weren't even in the first demands) what else could've NATO done?

Have you read your source? Not a single mention of nazis or the war in Donbas. So go read your own source and then come tell me how those demands are justified.

Just two that are obvious, tolerating of Nazi symbology and members in Azov (your initial source on this did not go into detail on how exactly Azov doesn’t allow Nazis in it anymore after being explicitly created by them 10 years ago), and de-escalating the war on Luhansk and Donnetsk and recognising their desire to be independent.

You do understand what justified means? You just gave me examples of the demands, not how they're justified.

I’m not sure how somebody could be against those things, let alone deny that they’ve been happening for 10 years now.

I'm sure you don't. I can understand being critical of those things but that is not justification. If your neighbor beats up their wife/girlfriend do you think it would be justified to kick down their door, beat the man into submission , kill their children, thrash the entire apartment and call it a job well done? Would it be more justified if you before-hand told that you would do it?

But please, don’t address the important bit and go talk about random unrelated things like language levels, which is a tangent on top of a tangent on top of a tangent.

You do realize you're the one who brought up language levels?

erm, no? Aren’t we on an English site?

Because in this case the English source looks better than reality?

On the other hand your other source isn’t particularly “official,” it’s just a blog in Russian.

I guess your Russian is not that good then. It's a blog post that goes over the 2020 population consensus data. That numbers there are official numbers. More than 99% of Russians stated they know only Russian.

I honestly don't have anything else to say about the rest of your comment. It goes too off the tangent to really focus on any individual part there. You're just going on and on about how you don't care but you still keep coming back.

Really silly of you to come back and not even look into it. If you want something even more precise, I challenge you to find something called “English proficiency index,” but the entire point there is that you wasted my time asking for source on some incredibly easy to find non-politicised source for data to deflect from your baseless speculation on how “Russians fall for everything” of their own propaganda. I wonder what you’ll think of the countries lower on that index. If you even look for it, that is.

Jesus... And you tell me how I misrepresent sources. But unlike you I actually take effort to explain why you're wrong. EF EPI evaluates the English proficiency based on who took the test. It is not even an estimation of how big part of the population actually speaks english (on any level). It just states that from the russian people who chose to take test they proficiency is at B2 level. Also, you still didn't even bother to link a source.

You seem to be mistaken. It’s not that I didn’t read it, it’s that I didn’t feel like adding it in the comment because it’s such easy to find info. But since you seem to be incapable of doing a basic google search to verify, and I think I should be your personal source-fetching bot, I’m stubbornly not giving you the source because I “gave up” on you. On the other hand you also came out with your own claim of “lots don’t speak English,” with no source to contradict me, which is funny because you had a whole week to find one.

I also didn't add any sources because most of should be an easy find, funny how you give me shit about it but then turn around and do the exact same thing. Also what the fuck? I never claimed "lots don't speak English". You're literally making shit up about what I supposedly said.

Anyway since you now indirectly asked for it, and it seems it's not that easy of a search for you, I give you the source that Russians in general don't really speak English. I hope your Russian is good. Actually that wasn't a quick search, a quick search would've found you an English site that actually gave a far more generous estimation (about 10%), but I'm guessing you would've taken an issue with a random English side stating the obvious so I dug a bit deeper to find a more official source, specifically to prove how fucking wrong you are.

I can be petty sometimes, and if you keep pestering me I’ll only be petty from now on because you’re just a silly person with silly behaviour and I ain’t got time in my life to take you seriously.

Maybe you should considering it's becoming more and more apparent how little you actually know about the shit you're talking about. You might actually learn something from me.

Everyone has limits, and you seem so stuck on completely failing to grasp even your own sources that I don’t see why I should bother. I usually engage with silly people like you in forums because other, more curious and interested people might read it. Since you’re just being (intentionally?) silly and misreading your own sources on NATO or not remembering the official NATO name for the coup is “Revolution of Dignity,” I don’t think there’s much use to this one here and you’re free to go pester somebody else.

I wasn't going to specifically address one part of your ramblings, nothing there deserved to be addressed because it was all bullshit. So don't throw out some easy gotchas like YOU getting the name wrong.

I like how you accuse me of “vagueposting” by being vague in your accusations. My very first comments were being made about they hypothetical guarantees you took so much issue with. You still haven’t shown how those guarantees would’ve not prevented the war or been sane de-escalations.

Since you always seem to forget: de-escalate war on Donnetsk and Luhansk, recognise their independence or at least do proper procedure on it, disband Azov and ban neo-nazi symbology, reinstate Russian as a co-official language, guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO and there’ll be no nukes in Russia’s critical neighbouring countries.

I've been trying to tell you for a while now, the demand of those guarantees is baseless. What is the justification for those demands? Should the rest of the world just roll over for Russia because they have concerns? Please, enlighten me how are they justified?

Ah yeah, the old debate trick of saying “fuck off, you’re being an arse, go pester somebody else.” I’m not “debating” with you anymore, nor was I ever to begin with. I just want you to find something more worthwhile to do with your life because I don’t have an obligation to correct every single arrogantly ignorant person on the internet, just because they’re feeling lonely. I do it of my own volition when I think I might change or learn something. As I said before, nobody else is watching, and you don’t seem to have much interest in either learning or teaching, so this is indeed “a waste of my time.” You might find more interest if you send a letter to your congressperson.

You say that, but then you also claim you won't even give me the time of day. Another empty statement by you.

I guess the internet is weird, people can’t differentiate fun mockery from actual anger. I was mocking how incredibly ignorant you were showing yourself off to be, by either stating complete unsourced nonsense, or asking for sources for things that are literally in the links you provided, or even failing to understand how military alliances work. Obviously since I have no hope for you I won’t actually put the effort to explain why those are problems, I guess you’d just deflect to something else as always.

Well if being deliberately wrong is fun mockery then by all means, be a joke.

That’s cool, at least something good came out of this whole interaction. I also enjoyed how you came back after the obvious bait of “care to elaborate.” Seems like you really like me. But I don’t like you, go find somebody who reciprocates.

I do actually like you. You're part of my daily entertainment.

Now, if you reply (and you’re obviously gonna reply, you just can’t leave me be), before your own comment list in your own words every single demand from Russia wrt the war, and whether they’ve been conceded on or ignored. I wonder if you’ll find something, but please don’t come back without making it clear you understand those demands clearly.

I'm just going to stick my hand in your playbook and say every single demand is easy to google so you should know that I know what they are. I don't need to give sources to things that are easy to google. Did I get it right?

You tell others to "read before you write" but then yourself don't do it. Like you said, it's quick google to see that "a lot" of Russians don't speak English. But instead of doing a quick google to see if you're full of shit you just write it out anyway. No regards to you own "read before you write" mantra. In fact every place where I specifically asked for proof is a place where you're either completely wrong or partially wrong.

Then there's the whole "we're here to have a discussion, why are you even here to discuss something if you don't care about it?" as if you're open to discussion. Except when I actually push back you turn around and go "No point in discussing, nobody else will see it" which is entirely contradictory to US having "discussion".

Then there's the deliberately vague part which is how the entire thread started. Your first comment literally "maybe this or maybe that and maybe something else would've happened". Could it be any more vague? I even pressed you on specifically mentioning what you mean by guarantees and your response was somehow even more vague, telling me to read Putins speech and figure them out on my own. You did something similar the second time when I asked proof of a lot of Russians speaking English and you told me to go find the data myself. Any and all attempts for any specificity out of you is met with vagueness or deflection. Which makes it pretty ironic for you to call people questioning your vagueness as vagueposting.

And then you pull out every "debate" lord trick in the book. You say I'm wasting your time, I'm moving goalposts, I'm in bad faith. You call me names, like "debate pervert". And then you pull a series of "evidence of nonsense" where you're just raging.

I honestly had a good laugh over your entire comment because it epitomizes your hypocrisy.