kd637_mi

Mali. The domain is free.

It shouldn't be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country. The point is that that former semi-feudal peasant economy rose rapidly to become at least a perceived competitor to the west, even with the most destructive war ever waged on a large part of its most fertile and productive land.

Also, corruption and lying? That isn't specific to the USSR. People are and were miserable in the west too, cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too. Comparing like for like, socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialise, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.

That's a pretty poor takeaway I would say. The argument would be that the Nazis took direct inspiration from the early US idea of Manifest Destiny and the dealings with Native Americans. That in turn should give people reason to think about how to change their own society and how to make the world better, instead of handwaving it away by saying, 'Nazi genocide was worse, why are you bringing up the US?'

Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy. There are historical, political, social, and economic reasons things happen, and sometimes it pays to put things in context. Limiting the discussion to the thing happening NOW and only NOW doesn't allow for a better understanding of the events.

Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn't be seen as a bad thing, especially if it's pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist. You can see based on past events such as the war on terror and endless drone striking of civilians how governments could expect that to be the standard way of operating. That doesn't make it right, only that military intervention has been and continues to be legitimised politically by the international community.

Well, I'm not just hand-wringing about this particular conflict. We are in a thread about this conflict and I am trying to explain my viewpoint on why bringing up the warcrimes of the US and allies is not simply whataboutism.

I really don't like how often I see people ok with the idea of nuclear war. I like Fallout as much as the next person but I don't think it's an accurate representation of nuclear apocalypse.

Ok, fair enough. But the achieving strategic objectives isn't on the side, it's the primary aim. People can see that and still support the US supporting Ukraine, but it seems so many people just think that the US are 'the good guys'. They aren't. No one is. The Ukrainian government aren't the good guys, stopping people from leaving the country and forcing them to fight, and honouring Bandera and Azov. The Russian government aren't the good guys, conscripting their own citizens to fight people they say are their brothers, and their denazifying rhetoric might have had some pull if they didn't trade back those very Nazis after Azovstahl. The US government and the collective west aren't the good guys, supplying just enough weaponry to keep Ukraine in the fight, then upping support when it looks bad.

Also, going back to my talk about precedents set by the USA, this sets a precedent for other countries to overtly arm, fund, train, and supply intelligence to their direct opponents in any if their future aggressive wars. If the counterargument to that is, 'well, they can try, but we will fuck them up,' then we are in might makes right territory, which is more or less how the US currently operates, but clearly not ideal.

You said the other commenter's point seemed to be 'because America did bad things we must let bad things happen'. That wasn't their point, at least not to my reading of it. I read it as trying to highlight the hypocrisy of the international community, which usually means the USA and associated countries.

None of this is to excuse the war in Ukraine, but if the international community is to mean anything, and to have any legitimacy, it needs to apply the rules across the board. Since it doesn't mean anything beyond what is good for the US/corporate interests, the rules have not, and will not be applied evenly.

The US is not trying to do the right thing, it is trying to advance it's interests in the region at the expense of Russia, and unfortunately for Ukrainians at the expense of them too, even if it benefits Ukraine as a state. The fact that the US can wage so many destructive wars that are later acknowledged as mistakes and still be seen as trying to do the right thing shows how effective the propaganda arm of the country is.

No it didn't level Baghdad or Kabul. It did level Fallujah. Russia hasn't leveled Kyiv. It has leveled Mariupol.

It isn't just the US, the issue is that it is all backed and supported by its allies, including my country. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, not to mention the previous wars the international community has been involved in. There are still extrajudicial killings using drones, which would be considered terrorism if done the the US or allies.

Yes.

But it wasn't so often the central theme of the episode. We've had 4 out of 5 stories based purely around current events.