this post was submitted on 10 Sep 2023
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That’s literally how societies work. You can do everything yourself, or you can cooperate with other people. Cooperating means spending some of your time doing their stuff so they spend some of their time doing your stuff. Cooperating means giving up some free time but probably having more free time overall.
As is, you can have hobbies and interests now. Society isn’t stopping you from that either. You need to realize that your happiness is your responsibility instead of projecting onto the rest of us.
A “not stupid” version of your question might have been “what would you like to spend more time doing.” But that’s not the question you asked. You decide to blame society for you being kind of a pathetic person.
Please reread their post. That is what they want, but are unable to do because of capitalism.
Capitalism does not encourage cooperation. It encourages competition and domination. Competition between businesses and individuals, and domination of the working class by the state and capital.
The work one has to do under capitalism, i.e. wage labour, is not simply "cooperation". That would entail an agreement between equals. It is a coercive arrangement enforced by the state in which people must submit to the whims of an employer or else risk joining the ranks of the unemployed, or worse, the homeless, the presence of which is a necessity under capitalism as both a sobering reminder of what's at stake, and also to ensure there are always more people to employ.
You can - to a degree - choose who you work for, but to no extent can you choose whether you work.
That’s literally how life and any society works. Let’s rewind all the way to the beginning. If OP doesn’t like working in a society they can fuck off to the wilderness. But! Frontier survival would actually be more work and danger and less free time. Or, OP can move. But it turns out Western societies generally have shorter work weeks than the rest of the world. So what’s OP left with? Misplaced angst and the glaring unwillingness to take control of their own life.
No, it's really not. Not every society forces you to seek wage labour. This is only the case in capitalism.
No, they can't. The government would hunt them down. But again, it's not society in general they're against. It's capitalism. It's stunning that you conflate the two.
Okay but they weren't gonna do that. Nor is it the only way to not have to do wage labour.
We could instead transition our economy to one that operates on the basis of need instead of profit. Then people can choose how they work, without it defining their life:
Are you really stating this as a genuine option?! Do you know how fucking expensive that is??
The "rest of the world" predominantly includes other capitalist societies. Ones which the West forcibly made so, and made subservient, forcing down their wages and strongarming them into supplying us with cheap labour and goods. Not the best point you could have made.
Agitating for class consciousness and solidarity with fellow workers
Why is it misplaced? Also, it's quite clear they are more than willing to take control of their life, but have obstacles in the way.
What’s an example of a society that doesn’t require work?
You seem really hung up on the term” wage labor”. That’s not the only way to create or store value. But it is the most efficient. We could completely eliminate “money” but the concept of value would remain. And cooperation would only be more difficult and less efficient if I didn’t want to barter my chicken for your potato. Money, and “wage labor, regardless of who pays your wages, allow for the transfer of goods and services between individuals who don’t need the others goods or services now.
No they wouldn’t. Because except for your family and friends, nobody gives a fuck about you. It’s hilarious that y’all think this is even a possibility. I mean seriously, if I went missing tomorrow, would you know or care? And if not, why would anyone else?
This is absolutely an option. People all over the world do it every day.
Moving seems easier, quicker, and more effective. But this could work too. Carry on.
Anyway, always fun to chat with college communists. Have a great day.
It's stunning to me that you can't conceive of another way for goods to be stored or distributed. Community stores? Mutual aid? Never heard of these? There is no need for money or any analogue. Bartering is also kind of a myth. No one ever participated in bartering on a large scale, even before money. People just gave each other things, all the time.
Relevant terms for further reading:
Mutual aid
Gift economy
Library economy
Also, yes, the government would hunt you down because you'd no longer be paying taxes. They kinda don't like that.
Moving is not an option if you don't have enough money, and no way to earn it.
One last thing - I left college a decade ago. :)
There are many ways that societies can work. Criticising the way society currently works is not criticising all possible societies. The options are not "accept things the way they are" and "bugger off into the wilderness".
What’s a society that isn’t premised on cooperation? Capitalism, communism, and essentially every other form of society are simply differences in how the money is divided up. They’re not differences in the belief that members of society have to work.
I mean, OP can move to a different society. OP could also stay and vote but I suspect that type of cooperative government might not be what they’re after. So yeah, in general, acceptance and fucking off are the only two real, immediate, choices OP can make. And in the context of this thread, asking OP this question is a great way to get to the point of their complaint.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Because nowhere has anyone said they oppose cooperation.
Boy howdy that seems like an ENORMOUS difference.
That is what OP is saying. They want to know what we’d do if we weren’t forced to sell most of our time.
I agree. But again, that’s not what OP is talking about. As we’ve established, any society requires cooperative work. Neither you or OP has argued that another system wouldn’t require OP to “sell most of their time.” If you’d like to make this argument you might be interested to start here.
No it isn't. That's something you have hallucinated.
There's a lot of options between having to spend the majority of our time dedicated to work, and not cooperating at all.
Not to mention most of the work we do isn't for the benefit of our communities, but for the benefit of a tiny handful of already-incredibly rich assholes.
That would be convenient for your argument, but actually, you do not get to decide what other people are talking about based on what is most convenient for you to argue against.
I read OPs post. I quoted it back to you. Both you, and OP, are implicitly arguing that you should be able to both fuck off AND have the benefits of society. That’s actually one of the perks of a functioning society where a member who is to old, sick, or otherwise unable to contribute can be taken care of. Do one of these apply to you or OP? If not, you’re no different than the “already rich assholes” except that you’re takers who are bad at capitalism.
Anyway. Have a nice day.
No. I'm not. I'm telling you I'm not. Despite whatever nonsense you are hallucinating, that isn't the argument I'm making.
Society can be structured differently. So resources can be distributed more fairly. So everyone can enjoy more of their time. Instead of a greedy few getting most of the benefit at the expense of the rest of us.
Bite me, asshole.
hey so i read all your comments here and I feel like it would have been far less of a waste of your time (and others) to just ignore the whole capitalism thing and answer what you'd do with your free time if you had more free time.
No, they're not.
It should be, but this is becoming less and less the case as welfare, social security and pension plans keep getting cut and gutted.