this post was submitted on 27 Apr 2024
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  • military neutrality
  • outlaw extreme nationalism
  • cede Crimea and part of Donbass
  • full Russian withdrawal
  • guarantor countries (πŸ‡¨πŸ‡³πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡«πŸ‡·πŸ‡¬πŸ‡§πŸ‡ΉπŸ‡·) obliged to intervene within 3 days if Russia invades
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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

cede Crimea and part of Donbass

full Russian withdrawal

These contradict each other.

The whole list is "Let the invader win and blame the victim" so go fuck yourself.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The places that are primarily ethnic Russian? And voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine in 2014? And then have been subject to an illegal bombing campaign by Ukraine from then until October 2022?

No investigation, no right to speak.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

the victims are the people of ukraine, who are being fed to the war machine by a right wing nationalist government in the name of western hegemony

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago

Well the noble defenders are currently in need of more soldiers. Go enlist now if this is the war you think it is. Do you need help finding out how to?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Russia joined a civil war already in progress on the morally correct side

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

If you can't understand that things have gotten far worse for Ukraine in every respect in the past two years, while hundreds of thousands of people died, and millions more had their lives ruined, then kindly take your own advise. It's incredible how libs love to moralize while the actual tangible outcome of their actions is always nightmarish. This is what happens when people become completely disengaged from reality.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

They didn't defend themselves strongly enough when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, and Russia then invaded again. Why would letting Russia annex more land do anything other tha encourage them to finish the job they have clearly stated was fully conquering Ukraine?

You are the one denying reality. Or shilling for Putin more likely.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago (1 children)

they have clearly stated was fully conquering Ukraine?

Source?

[–] [email protected] -5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Putin’s clearest answer yet came in a speech delivered on Monday. He believes that Ukraine is an illegitimate country that exists on land that’s historically and rightfully Russian: β€œUkraine actually never had stable traditions of real statehood,” as he puts it.

That is when the war started, when they were going to take Kiev in three days and Putin has repeated the assertion that Ukraine is really "part of Russia" multiple times since then. Russia switched to the narrative of taking only Donbass when the offense was stopped and Ukraine started retaking ground.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Fascinating. So if one state doesn't recognize another, that means that it "clearly states its aim is to fully annex it." So for example, the US doesn't recognize the government of Afghanistan, so that means the US "clearly states" it aims to reinvade and fully annex Afghanistan, do I have that right?

Or maybe you meant to say that Russia implicitly suggested that it intended to fully annex Ukraine, according to your speculation?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Russia is literally in the process of fully conquering Ukraine as we speak. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend there?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The part where you think Ukraine should roll over and give up.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You mean the western backed regime in Ukraine that's kidnapping people off the street and forcing them to fight in a proxy war?

[–] [email protected] -4 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago

It's so bad that even western media admits this, maybe try engaging with reality? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/world/europe/ukraine-military-recruitment.html

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You're failing to separate "Ukraine" the concept of a nation from "Ukraine" the government from "Ukraine" the group of people. In material terms, if life as part of the Russian Federation is comparable to life as an independent Ukraine (and Crimea was doing alright when there wasn't much fighting), what does a war accomplish? Especially a war that the Ukrainian military was always going to lose. The end result is, as Yogthos said, incredible human suffering without even accomplishing the worthless task of keeping your preferred flag flying.

Now, I don't actually agree that Russia wants to annex all of Ukraine. I think they want to break the back of the military and annex as much of Ukraine as votes to join them, but handling the colonial occupation of a country that wants to secede (like Ukraine had been doing with Donbas) is not in its interests. That said, even if they just wanted to take over the whole of Ukraine, a negotiated peace that wins concessions for human welfare would, in every respect, be a superior result to a losing war unless you're a dog of the west and see damage to Russia as worth throwing generations into a meat grinder.

Edit: The reason why, to pick an example you probably are inclined towards, it was reasonable to fight desperately against the Nazis is twofold: One, the occupation represented a disastrous change for many, many inhabitants, such that few families would be untouched by the genocide (to say nothing of the national looting). Two, the Nazis were always likely to lose in the end because of their unstable model of operation, with many powerful enemies, meaning that one's own hopeless personal resistance contributed to the broader anti-Nazi struggle that would indeed come to a successful conclusion.

I've already said in so many words that Russian occupation is unlike Nazi occupation, and Russia does not seem poised to lose as the Nazis were, it's being careful about who it attacks and when, while continuing to cultivate stable alliances with other countries great and small in the imperial periphery and semi-periphery. The fight of the Ukrainian military both has nothing useful it could accomplish and no prospect of contributing to Russia's downfall (nor is there much reason Russia should be taken down ahead of the western bloc). It's pointless.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

Which β€œthey” didn’t defend themselves strongly enough in 2014? The US-installed coup government or the people of Crimea who welcomed the Russian government?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago

Just be aware this poster is often posting pro-Russian, pro-China content. There's value in other points of view and not being myopic, but if you pay attention to posting trends or look at their history, there is a clear bias and/or agenda.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Do people not have a right to an opinion? Or are you telling us what and how we should think and believe?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

People have the right to an opinion, and I have the right to point out the obvious idiocy of that opinion. If you have an actual counterpoint to what I said, then feel free to expound on it.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Just be aware this poster is often posting pro-Russian, pro-China content. There's value in other points of view and not being myopic, but if you pay attention to posting trends or look at their history, there is a clear bias and/or agenda.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I love how libs always resort to smearing people instead of engaging with the actual points being made.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I enjoy how this comment seems to counter what another commenter said about you.

It's hardly a smear to point of a bias or perspective you hold. I'm not commenting on you, your politics, or worldview. Just pointing out that others should do their own research.

But if that is smearing in your perspective, and that makes me a 'lib', alright.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

It's very obvious why you made your comment and what you were trying to accomplish with it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Your repeated comment can serve literally no other purpose than ad hominem. As in, because this poster posts things you claim to be "pro-Russia" and "pro-China" therefore the information the poster posts should be considered suspect.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Join the reddit foreign legion, it is your moral duty to die for ukraine

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Seeing a lot of downvotes on this, so let just say for those who perhaps think focus is some hockus website....

Alongside Spiegel and Stern, Focus is one of the three most widely circulated German weeklies.

It is a well regarded German outlet.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

It might be a well regarded outlet, but it's not saying what people want to hear.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

BILD is also one of the most widely circulated German media outlets, that doesn't mean that their content isn't full of nonsense. Circulation says nothing about bias or lack thereof or even quality of journalism.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

It's a respected mainstream publication, if you're implying there are quality issues with their reporting then please substantiate that.