Just a reminder, telegram is NOT secure at all. Telegram is NOT end-to-end encryptes by default, and they are not disclosing this fact peoperly, which makes them untrustworthy and not a tool against growing online surveilance
this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2023
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Privacy
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Look, I once got everyone I know to switch to matrix (Riot, before element) and they depracated the client, made everyone redo their encryption keys, it was a huge mess. Nobody will ever listen to me ever again about a messaging app because of what new vector did with riot.
Matrix is too janky for people. Use something else. Simplex, signal, whatever.
Beyond that, the key is breaking this "one more app" mentality. Why is it so hard to have an app on your phone? These people would install the Starbucks app for a single free milkshake in a heartbeat. This expectation that everyone and everything can be done in one app is absurd, and it's marketing by the big companies to lock people in when there's no reason for it. your phone runs apps. What's the big deal?
And that starts with you. make yourself available on multiple different messengers as possible. Don't say "I use matrix", youre being inflexible. Use everything that doesn't collect your contacts and spy on you. Use telegram, but tell people telegram isn't encrypted. I personally have matrix, XMPP, session, signal, simplex, telegram, and I even have a discord but I never use it. I fall back to email if I have to. Be flexible if you expect others to be, be available to communicate with in as many ways as you can privately to incentivize people to switch, give them options and let them pick.
Matrix is too janky for people. Use something else. Simplex, signal, whatever
This is the gist of it, yes. Setting up a Matrix account has several steps (e.g. backups, identity server, discovery) that are each complicated enough on their own to be deal-breakers for the vast majority of users. It's just a non-starter for anyone who's not a techie. It's been around for many years but still has an absolutely terrible UX.
I wouldn't dare to recommend it to anyone I know because I do not have the patience to walk them through it and explain it. It would cost me time, energy, and most importantly it would cost me social trust. Nobody would take me seriously anymore if I recommended something that is so user-unfriendly.
Signal is a pretty easy sell, on the other hand. It's simple, it's secure, and it works like any other messaging client. It's not 800 steps to set up backups and discovery. I would prefer to use a decentralized platform, but I'm not investing into Matrix because IMHO, it has no future in the mainstream. I have a Matrix account but I don't use it talk to anyone I know IRL, and I doubt I ever will.
Signal is only easier because it entirely ignores logging in on multiple devices. Maybe for some it is ok, but for me this is a huge dealbreaker, not an advantage.
If you dont set up key backups (an optional feature), its the same thing: with Signal, if you delete the app or lose your phone, all your messages are gone, along with your contacts that werent saved in your phone contacts and uploaded to a cloud service. If you use Matrix as you do with Signal, it works the same: you delete it, messages are gone. This is the default. But, you have the option to keep your messages.
Identity server? You dont have to use that, and I don't either. You are not obliged to set up being discovered by outside identifiers. Like I don't want people to find me by my phone number, as I don't want to use my phone number, for anything, at all, and so I didn't do that.
I see that on Signal, you always find people by their phone number, which you are required to hand in. On Matrix, you find people either by their handles (~username), or their phone number or email address if they have handed those in, voluntarily.
So with an indentity server you can make yourself discoverable by your phone number, and you must use one if you want that.
But I think there is a better solution (on the long term, at least): to forget about phone numbers altogether, when possible. Why would this be feasible? It is possible to store the handle in your phones contacts, with the standard "instant messenger" field. Contacts then are usually sharable in messaging apps, or with a QR code, and a lot of software generally understands this format, so you could use this to make your handle known.
By the way, identity servers and discovery is the same step, not 2 different one.
Perhaps this varies by server, or perhaps it's changed since I signed up. When I signed up, I connected an identity server and then needed to go through a few extra steps to enable discovery by email address and phone number. IIRC my identity server did not support phone numbers at the time.
I greatly prefer service-specific usernames over phone numbers, and that's a huge point in favor of Matrix. And I agree, Signal is ass-backwards when it comes to multiple devices.
Ok, now seeing what you mean, yes it may be thought of as 2 steps, because you really need to choose a server (or accept the default recommendation of your HS) and then add your info there, but mentally I just think of it as 1, because to me it feels like a single unit.
Ok, now seeing what you mean, yes it may be thought of as 2 steps, because you really need to choose a server (or accept the default recommendation of your HS) and then add your info there, but mentally I just think of it as 1, because to me it feels like a single unit.
I personally have matrix, XMPP, session, signal, simplex, telegram, and I even have a discord but I never use it.
I have Matrix, Session, Singal, Telegram, and Discord. Telegram is saldomly used and Discord is just subscribed to a bunch of game communities. Signal is threatened by OSB and IPA, which announced by them that they will get out of the UK market if those are in effect. Then left Matrix and Session, both not used by anyone.
I would like to be flexible but the reality is there are not much choices. Only XMPP which I don't have, nor natively supports E2EE which varied by clients.
Look into JMP.CHAT. it's XMPP, with a phone number that is gatewayed to PBX for voice, and can send/receive SMS.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm more surprise of it providing a phone number rather than XMPP.
From what I understand, many large tech companies will leave UK if those laws are passed. I highly doubt it will happen, and if it does, I bet it will take about five seconds for the government to realize how vastly they fucked up.
Sorry to break it to you, but Matrix is (for all practical purposes) run by a UK based company. If you are concerned about UK legislation, they are one of the worst to switch to as they will likely have little choice but to comply.
Better use XMPP, which is fully independent of any single company running everything behind the curtains.
Matrix is a protocol
Which is 100% controlled by the Matrix Foundation (and not an international standard like XMPP), which in turn is near 100% controlled by a single UK based company (Element/New Vector). Which makes the distinction between the company and the protocol absolutely moot. I wish it was otherwise.
That's not really true though. If the Matrix foundation, element or any other party does something scketchy just fork it
Have you ever looked at the Synapse codebase? It's almost as bad as Chromium and we all know how impossible that is to "just fork".
That comparison doesn't make sense. They are actively developing Dendrite alongside Synapse. They goal of Synapse is to be the stable version that just works and deploys the new features. Not necessarily being slim and efficient. That's where Dendrite comes in and is very close to being feature parity. Many major servers already are running Dendrite and you wouldn't even notice.
So if Google was actively developing a competitor to Chromium that is much more slimmed down and efficient, then your comparison would make sense.
Huh? Nothing stops you from hosting your own server they can't prevent that
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i just tell them "if you want to talk to me im on X", if they care enough they will, if they dont, they wont. problem solved.
I wish I can be this definitive but I couldn't. Those connections are still needed, and most of the time is I need to talk to someone rather than the opposite.
Which is why I don't like that advice. These connections are valuable, and people might want to talk to you but have other reasons why they won't end up using the privacy focussed option only. It's very hard to switch fully to something like Signal or Matrix, and this isn't unique to privacy focussed chat apps either.
For me I talk to close friends and family on Signal, and that works because those are the people I have personal discussions with. For other friends that don't really use Signal consistently, I've found that they still use Signal when they want to talk about something private. It's a process, and I'm happy to put in a little bit of work while people I care about switch over.
and most of the time is I need to talk to someone rather than the opposite.
for this you cant do much other that setup a whatsapp bridge or something
and all the others say, "if you want to talk to me I'm on Facebook"
for them, problem solved
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I set up a home server with a litany of bridges.
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I show them all my chats from multiple platforms in one app.
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They ask me for an account.
Got a how to for #1? Sounds like you hid a lot of complexity in that 1 step.
You can also try to find an instance that already does bridging. For Finnish citizens, pikaviestin.fi is a good option, but they don't provide accounts to non-finns.
But no, I do not have a guide for setting this up. But you set up a homeserver, with a domain you can commit to, and once that is working, configure whatever bridges you like using their respective docs.
And yes, it is complex. Matrix is the most complicated thing I've ever self-hosted. But it wasn't untenable, and it's been very low maintenance.
Nice move
You don't persuade them. They've already made their decision. Now you have to make yours. Their reasons for not wanting to switch are just as valid as yours for wanting to.
So, you either switch and accept that some of the people in your life don't actually care enough to come with you, or you're the one that has to adapt to multiple apps to communicate with others. That's really what it boils down to. Most people don't care about the matter, and there's a segment of people in most of our lives that don't care about us if there's any inconvenience involved.
Some of them made alternate suggestions, which means they're willing to go through some inconvenience for you, just not the specific inconvenience of having an app that only you and they will be using.
Despite now having storage space for multiple messaging apps, people resist the idea of having more than whatever arbitrary number they've decided doesn't work. In some cases, that number may be one. And the truth is that remembering who is connected via what app/service is a pain in the ass if there's enough people in your life. Some people can't handle that memory issue and are just going to refuse outright out of necessity.
So, stop trying to change their minds and seek compromise. If they're willing to switch to telegram, you can at least have some degree of encryption, so go with that for anyone that's expressed willingness. Let that core group become the reason for anyone else to join in.
Unless you just want to play hardball and refuse to communicate with anyone on anything but your choice. There will be some that cave and join in. But you'd be amazed how many people and which people don't really want to talk to you enough to do so. But you'll have a small group of people that are now using it with you. You'll have to help them get set up, and be prepared for the inevitable tech support you're volunteering to provide, as well as the need to guide them through the learning curve of it.
I'm in the process of trying to convince my company to switch to Matrix. I've setup a test server and the execs are tepidly giving it a whirl.
The problem is, we use Teams, Microsoft has its proverbial foot in our door, people are used to Teams and don't really want to switch, and the company doesn't care enough about privacy and data sovereignty to overcome the inertia and the learning curve.
They listen politely to my arguments and they agree that it would be better if Microsoft didn't get all our data, but ultimately they really don't care at all.
Bro I can't even convince them to join me on Signal... It even syncs contacts w/ mobile number so it's just a matter of downloading a stupid app and you're set... I think one day I'll be brave enough and just disappear from whatsapp.
I did this a few years ago. I set my status message to "Starting on [date] I'll be available only on Signal/sms." and that was it. A few frieds/family members moved, most of them not, but I don't miss it a bit.
Don't remind me of Signal. I spent lots of effort to convince them to switch, and ultimately defeated, not the app but me, because of a protest that people move toward a more secure communication system i.e. Signal, not more private.
I basically forced everyone to message me on Signal & Telegram cause fuck Meta (people my age in Canada desperately wants to talk on Instagram for some reason)
"Installing APP does not require you to switch to it nor asking friends and family to use it. What it does is allowing them to reach out to you in a private way. By installing it you respect and support their choice of avoiding BAD_APP."
On the sidenote: Just recommend Signal. It uses phone number as identifier, easy to grow by using phone book, has good track record when glowies have a warrant and most importantly it's stable. It has flaws (no sms, not saving chat history) but there are no other alternatives available yet that beat signal for normies.
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You could buy them a drink to install it. That's how I got my family onto Signal. I also got my GF onto Element, but she's also obligated to put up with my shit
Goals🤩
As some would phrase it
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Respect their decision. Use bridges if you still want to chat with them. You can tell them you prefer Matrix and maybe even convince them to try it out once you show you can use it to combine multiple chat apps into one using Beeper or whatever, but you won't convince them to switch over. Element will just be "that app we use if we want to talk to x" if you try.
I think Matrix is good enough these days, but it wasn't ages. The official iOS app is being rewritten (for good reason) and the Android app is being rewritten again.
Not a lot really. Also, until element gets easier key management for encryption i wouldnt suggest it. I understand public/private keys and session verification and still can never restore matrix from backups without it saying "waiting for message" and it never decrypting even though all the keys imported fine. Its a PITA
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