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this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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Asklemmy
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I agree that we should strive for people to be healthy. But there's a lot of evidence to suggest that shame not only is ineffective but can actually have the opposite effect.
Besides, I think you're being pretty reductive. Health includes both physical and mental, we should take steps to improve both of these. And I get the sense that you specifically take issue with body positivity specifically around fat people, as I assume you don't think being short or tall is unhealthy. In which case, you're ignoring the economics of it (at least in America, there are a ton of government subsidies for corn, incentivizing businesses to load up our food with corn syrup).
The issue is complex and so would any solutions. At least in America, we need to deincentivize the production of unhealthy food, better access to healthcare, and cultural shifts as well. And I'm sure there's a whole lot I'm missing.
If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight. Embracing being fat and blaming others is not healthy, it’s delusional.
There’s also a ton of government subsidizes for other fruits and vegetables. Don’t blame the government for your poor eating habits. Learn to prepare real food. It’s healthier, cheaper, and more abundant. You don’t need to deincentivize producing unhealthy food, you just need to choose not to eat it.
This culture of supporting people who are overweight is making us all lose sight of what a healthy lifestyle looks like. As generations spend less time working physically and more time sitting, our diets should be moving towards far less calories. Instead, we’re being made into nothing more than consumers who click a button to have bad food delivered to us while we sit on the couch.
The only complex issue is how we got here. It’s not complex to make healthier choices. I’d argue it’s easier than what we’re doing now. To quote Michael Pollan, “eat food, not too much, mostly plants”.
You would think so, but you'd be wrong. As I said before, shaming not only doesn't work but has the opposite effect.
As James Corden said:
If you're sincere in your desire to make people healthier, then shame is not the way.
If you're only interested in a feeling of superiority, then carry on I guess.
Except that I never suggested people should be shamed by others or made fun of. I said if a person felt ashamed of themselves, that should motivate them.
Do I need to repeat myself for a 3rd time? Do you not realize that "ashamed" is the adjective form of "shame"?
Wow. You’re really stuck on not engaging in this conversation. You can lie to yourself all you want and pretend you’re somehow more virtuous than everyone else. I’m not taking the bait.
I'm frankly not even clear what the conversation is that you're trying to have. You claim, "I'm not saying we should shame people" and then go on to once again declare that "if people feel ashamed they'll lose weight". So which is it, is shame helpful as a weightloss tool or not? Spoiler alert: it's not.
To me it honestly seems like you accidentally triple downed on an objectively bad position and are trying to buzzword your way out of it with accusations of virtue signaling and trolling.
Just take the L and move on dude.
I don't know if you're trolling me or you genuinely don't understand words.
To shame someone is entirely different than to feel ashamed of yourself. If you kick a dog, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. If you forgo a healthy weight or lifestyle in favor of overconsumption and ignorance, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. Someone informing you that you are overweight is not the same as them shaming you.
I swear, people are so hell bent on virtue signaling that they lose all sense of reality.
Is it? The end result is a feeling of shame. And that feeling of shame, doesn't make people lose weight. I've now said it for the 4th time. But yeah, I'm the one that doesn't understand words.
I see, so it's a moral failing of someone to be fat? Akin to kicking a dog? Wild take.
In the end, you're right. I'm not interested in having this conversation. Because this isn't a conversation about making people healthier, it's a moral conversation. And I don't think someone is immoral for having an eating disorder just as I don't think someone is immoral for having cancer.
If you would like to discuss actionable, material ways to help people I'm all in. If you want to larp as a televangelist screeching about the evils of being fat, I'm out.
LOL. You’re just arguing with yourself and your own made up conversation at this point. You don’t have to answer but I am curious if you’re an adult.
Literally quoting you lol.
I'm old enough to remember "asl?". Why do you ask about my age, looking for an easy way to dismiss me?
Out of curiosity, are you religious?
Let me preface what I want to say with the fact that I have previously lost half of my bodyweight largely because of a lack of body positivity in my head, and it’s still lacking.
You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life. Where does that end? Should only people who physically appear to be unhealthy be shamed? Should people who have actual unhealthy bodies be shamed? Should people who have invisible unhealthy habits like hidden bulimia be shamed? Should people who have unhealthy mental conditions that are only diagnosable by experts be shamed?
I’m not being sarcastic or rhetorical, I’m genuinely curious where the line should be drawn. Some people are physically incapable of losing weight. Some people are perfectly healthy despite appearing overweight, yet they are treated like less valuable people because they don’t conform to beauty standards. Some people are notably ill despite fitting conventional beauty standards.
Body positivity is about eliminating social standards of beauty that ignore health, not about making unhealthy people think they’re better off being unhealthy. Furthermore, health is absolutely a luxury for many people. When survival is expensive, surviving with the time and money to take care of your body can be unattainable
I never said or suggested that and resent you putting those words into my mouth. No one should make fun of someone's weight. No one should shame someone because of their weight. You're making up a lot of ideas that I never presented. I'm not spending any more time dissecting everything you claim I said and defending myself. I think I was pretty clear about how our culture supports and celebrates being fat and I don't think that's beneficial for people's mental or physical health.
If you think the culture celebrates being unhealthy then you should know the only part of the culture that does that is the corporations that benefit off of it. The rest of us are trying to eliminate the unconscious bias people have against people who are “fat.”
If you see someone who you think is unhealthy because they “fat,” think again.
I am not observing the same reality you’re describing. I am seeing a culture of people who celebrate themselves and others who are severely obese, as if that’s a good thing. I have witnessed first hand that people are trying to gain weight because they believe it’s attractive and empowering. I have witnessed discussion that celebrates laziness and consumerism as goals to be rewarded over hard work and physical and mental well being.
I agree that corporate propaganda is a portion of this culture and I’m saying that we all need to recognize that we’ve been brain washed. More so, the propaganda is coming from people who already feel bad about themselves and are forcing others to accept them and their disinterest in being healthy.
“I’m fat and don’t care to lose weight, you should celebrate me and you should be like me too.” Apparently, anyone who chimes back suggesting they go to a doctor and get a health check is “shaming” them. You have to support them, you have to say “you do you, live your best life”, etc otherwise you’re disparaging them. It’s not about you giving a shit about that person, it’s about you virtue signaling so no one can judge you.