I mean... I'm a capitalist who doesn't defend billionaires and also doesn't feel left out... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Right? There are pros and cons with every system. People disagree based on value judgements not based on misinterpretation of facts. People in their echo chambers will have you believe that everyone on the other side of the political spectrum all thinks the same way “the same people who say X also say Y!” Rarely is that the case. Most people are actually centrists who have their own independent beliefs on a wide range of topics.
Not everyone on my side of the political Spectrum thinks the same way. But if you are pro capitalist. You simply aren't thinking. Capital, markets, and currency. All existed before capitalism. The only thing capitalism did was justify the wealth and power of the wealthy and Powerful Beyond being simply born to wealthy powerful people. Now you get to be a wealthy powerful person by having capital. Which ironically just so happens to be most common among people born too powerful people. New boss same as the old boss. Funny how that works.
I hate capitalism, I just don't know of a better alternative. Nordic socialism is just capitalism with a big government. Soviet socialism failed miserably (it turns out, it is very hard to plan an economy). I have never heard a solid plan for communism that works on a national scale, never mind a plan for transitioning to such a society.
On the other hand, capitalism works reasonably well most of the time and we can just fix issues with it when they crop up (and we have a big backlog of issues to fix).
Capitalism does not work reasonably well most the time. Unchecked it leads to countless busts and Booms that leave the average person destitute. You really should look into the history of the early 20th century. The only reason we even still have capitalism. Is because of two massive world wars. Slaughtering and grinding up many tens of millions of people. As well as passage of basic Social Security nets. We've largely at least abandoned the spirit of. If if not in practice as well.
Capitalism has been a failure at every level. Constantly. That isn't a justification or Praise of leninism. There's a lot of other ideologies on the Socialist side Beyond leninism. And they don't require large National level government. Look into them sometime.
Is there any system that is more fair and/or gives you more freedom? I havent found any.
On a hypothetically completely free capitalist market, I can sell and buy whatever I wish and the value that I get when selling directly correlates to the value I'm bringing to the buyer. If I generated a lot of value, I have more capital so I can also buy more value using that capital. Sounds fantastic in theory.
Soviet socialism failed miserably (it turns out, it is very hard to plan an economy).
Did you actually check? Because based on a bunch of metrics I saw the USSR did pretty well compared to the feudalism that came before it and the capitalist "democracy" that came after its illegal and undemocratic dissolution.
If you support capitalism, then yes, you defend billionaires.
Counterpoint: Nope.
So, you support a system that inherently creates an upper class of obscenely rich people, yet are opposed to those people?
A system set up to enrich the owner of a business, while its workers lose out, creates exactly the people you claim not to defend.
No, I'm not opposed to them... I just don't support them. They can support themselves, and I can support myself just fine. I make more money from them than I would without them, and they make money from me they wouldn't have otherwise had my skillset to access easily.
I've never been forced to take any job... I just manage my skillset in such a way that makes it both rare and valuable. I've worn many hats over the years, and I just play the game instead of bitching about the rules Worked out great for me and my family so far. I'll even have some to leave my kids so they don't have as hard of a time reaching even higher than I have. That's the whole point, for me: make my kids' life better than mine, and I've done that so far.
No, I’m not opposed to them… I just don’t support them.
It doesn't work like that. They are in power, and by not opposing them, you consent to their continued power.
I make more money from them than I would without them,
That isn't even close to true. Capitalist extraction of surplus value is exactly how they make their profits. If they paid you the value you made them, they wouldn't have a profit. If they weren't there to extract that value, you and your fellow workers would make more - it's basic mathematics.
and they make money from me they wouldn’t have otherwise had my skillset to access easily.
This part is true, yes.
I’ve never been forced to take any job…
So, you're saying you're able to retire right now and never work again?
I just play the game instead of bitching about the rules
That's a slave mindset.
That’s the whole point, for me: make my kids’ life better than mine, and I’ve done that so far.
That's cool you can think that small and that selfishly. Others, however, realise you could be living even better, and everyone else, including those with nothing, could have that standard of living, too, if we stop being complacent with mere crumbs.
That's what you have. Mere crumbs of luxury. It's great that you're not on the street, but that is an incredibly low standard to have.
If that were the case (which it isnt) I dont see a problem defending billionaires (and on the side also everybody's freedom and justice)...
You can't defend billionaires and justice at the same time
Why not? Capitalism is the most fair system to me.
What is the metric for fairness here? And what version of 'capitalism' are we talking about?
Fairness is subjective. To me it means: everyone is free to do what they like WITHOUT invading anybody elses freedom; if a person performs well, they should be rewarded well; everyone should have the same initial possibilities in life.
The version of capitalism I was talking about is capitalism with a regulated market. Basic needs should be covered (except if you refuse to contributr anything at all). Im pretty happy with the "social market economy" in Germany where I currently live.
everyone is free to do what they like WITHOUT invading anybody elses freedom
But how am I gonna get someone to work for me without invading their freedom to choose to do what they want?
Hell no, man. No one will work at my shop if they're allowed to do what they want.
Basic needs should be covered (except if you refuse to contributr anything at all).
Fuck yeah man! That's how we do it! That's what gets people working for me - the threat that not doing so will put 'em on the street! That's what I'm talkin' about!
But how am I gonna get someone to work for me without invading their freedom to choose to do what they want?
By offering them something in return...? Money for example, from which one can buy nice things.
That's how we do it! That's what gets people working for me - the threat that not doing so will put 'em on the street!
Not contributing anything at all wont work in any system or sosciety. Or in what system can I lay in bed all day and get everything I need for free?
By offering them something in return…? Money for example, from which one can buy nice things.
Who says I should do that? It's my prerogative to do what I can to make money. Don't try and regulate my ambition, you totalitarian communist.
Not contributing anything at all wont work in any system or sosciety. Or in what system can I lay in bed all day and get everything I need for free?
Absolutely nowhere, I say! Only people with gumption deserve to live!
You can do what you like but you asked me how to get people working for you so I made a proposal.
Do you actually have a point or are you just being ridiculous because you have no arguments?
I have plenty arguments. They were all written down for me by Adam Smith and improved by Milton Friedman.
Whats your point? I explained why I find capitalism to be a fair system and further elaborated on what I concidered "fair". What are you trying to say or are you just trolling?
I also agree it's fair. It fairly allows me to extract value from people as I sit back and do nothing. That's the pursuit of happiness in action, baby!
It sounds like you basically just described retirement, and I see nothing wrong with that. I'm investing in my future so that someday my capital increases to the point that I can live off the proceeds. I absolutely don't want to work until I die.
you basically just described retirement
Lmao no. I described ownership of private property. I described being able to own something, and get paid from people using it! The best scam in the world. Did you know you can just buy homes and get money from the people that wanted to buy it, yet not have to sell it to them? It's fucking marvellous - they live there, make it their home, and pay you for the privilege! And you get to be called a lord for doing this!
So everybody on Lemmy is non-capitalist is what you're saying?
A large proportion of Lemmy are not pro-capitalist, yes.
Thats still very much generalizing. What this meme essentially says is that if you're a capitalist, you're not part of Lemmy.
On a seperate note, you cant possibly know how many people on Lemmy actually support capitalism or not. It has a left tendency, yes, but I bet the majority of Lemmx users do support caputalidm in some shape or form.
Does anyone here own capital? As in being haut bourgeoisie? Probably not.
If you support capitalism and you're not a capitalist you're just a bootlicker.
And you live on your own self-sustaining compound, posting from your open hardware, fabricated in free factories, Libre software OS and applications, with compost-generated power? Didn't think so. Welcome to the gray zone bootlicker.
Does anyone here own capital? As in being haut bourgeoisie? Probably not.
If you support capitalism and you're not a capitalist you're just a bootlicker.
You wouldn’t be any better off on a socialist system. The people at the top of the party would control everything and the working class would be even poorer than they are now. You’re just licking the left boot instead of the right one.
This is empirically untrue, but also just nonsense. Politicians do not have the same class relationship as capitalists with the proletariat.
Oh I’m sorry i didn’t realize there was empirical evidence for socialism. Please send me a link to some of these successful socialist societies.
Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos for starters China went from a century of humiliation to a superpower in less then a century thanks to socialism. The USSR was better than the feudalism before it or the dictatorships of the bourgeoisie that came after it by a wide margin. For a place much poorer than the US, they had similar nutrition, better education, more rights for women both legalistically and practically.
Oh, throw in east Germany too. Do you know what the Stasi did to the lgbt movement that they saw as subversive? Destroy it by ending discrimination against gay and trans people, including a massive education campaign to eradicate homophobia and transphobia and state funded gay bars. Compare that to how the US was treating gay people at the time.
Dang, for a moment I considered that you might have independent thoughts. This LemmtGradChatGPT BS ruined it.
Yes, I probably have assets valued at .5-1M that I've accumulated with my family.
Okay, that at most makes you petite bourgeoisie not haut bourgeoisie. But I'm guessing you can't live off of your passive income so you're still proletariat. You have more in common with the proletariat than not, and you have more to gain by overthrowing capitalism then preserving it.
👌👍
Keep moving those goal posts.
Yes, the goal posts of definitions created by a guy who has been dead for more than 100 years. Clarifying a misunderstanding on a basic concept of Marxist analysis of capitalism written more than 100 years ago is moving the goalposts.
Also, can you live entirely off your passive income? If not, youre not even petite bourgeoisie.
Wow, this one touched some nerves.
I’d recommend posting a tangentially political meme at some point on Lemmy.
The amount of people who will come out of the woodwork to tell you ‘don’t post this’ and ‘don’t make things political’ will really be eye opening.
People don’t want to address systemic issues and think not talking about them is a viable solution.
Just making comments about rich people and their taxes seems to do the same thing here.
Don't even have to go THAT far, I get called a commie for saying a 40 hour work week should provide basic shelter these days. 🤷
If we want to live in boring reality, it doesn't happen a LOT but way more than it should.
I mean that was and is a basic communist agitating point, you might be closer to a communist than you think.
I don't know if this is supposed to be snarky or not but I've accepted a while ago that I'm definitely some version of "leftist."
I don't see myself that way necessarily but capitalists are drawing their line in the sand so far to the right that it is what it is lmao
These capitalist and billionaire cocksuckers sure love socialism when they socialise their losses and fucking take our tax payer money to bail themselves out. if you're working class and don't support socialism, you should look into it more. Propaganda from these blood sucking billionaire ghouls have made most of us blind to the better life socialism can offer us.
That isnt socialism, thats the capitalist state doing its job of protecting capital. Socialism is when the proletariat own the means of production.
Yes i agree. Just pointing out the fact there's no free market. When they lose, they still win by taking our hard earned money and using it to further their interests. I'd be happier if it were used for our welfare instead.