this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2023
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Is it just me who thinks we should act as if it is going to collapse soon, even if a few scientists aren't sure?
But what if it's all a hoax and we make the world a better place for no reason?
Won't someone think of the shareholders?
I am never going to recover financially from this.
I really hate this line of thinking.
"Making the world a better place" would be an enormous sacrifice for most people. There would be massive financial ramifications. Our quality of life would decrease significantly.
You can't eat money. Our quality of life is already decreasing because of this. How do you think people's quality of life in Europe is going to be when the Gulfstream current shuts down and stops bringing warm tropical water to them? Reducing our exploitation of natural resources is not a sacrifice, it's the right thing to do. What we've been doing is wrong.
I think you missed the hypothetical line of thought I responded to in which this is "all a hoax".
I think it's more 99.9% of the scientists think it will get proper fucked up in the 2100s, but this one report says it'll happen in the next few years.
But we should be doing something about it anyway.
If we actually cared we'd ban everything that's fucking the world up, and ban any imports from countries that don't agree. But if the last 5 years or so have told us anything, it's that a lot of people don't care. Even about things that directly affect them.
And people who do care often feel impotent to do anything about it.
Agree that drastic measures are necessary. It doesn't even have to mean a drop in living standards; but it will take radical changes to protect (and even raise) those standards.
Agree about imports. The problem I see is that even if products with a high carbon footprint are imported, it doesn't mean the person responsible for that carbon footprint isn't domestic to e.g. (going by your 'feddit.uk' handle) the UK. This could still be captured by an import ban (i.e. shareholders can't just export their emissions and pretend everything is okay), but the people with the power to export their emissions tend to have a lot of power to lobby the government, sit on government decision-making panels, or even choose MPs. They're unlikely to shoot themselves in the foot like that.
An example is laptops. They break every few years. For the past decade-or-so, they're made to be irreparable. They become landfill, and all that embodied carbon is wasted. Today's laptops don't even do anything that laptops of 15 years ago couldn't do, except deal with websites bloated with adverts. It doesn't matter so much where that consumer item is produced. The problem is the decision to make it so that it breaks and has to be replaced. Those decisions tend to be made in the west by people who will never willingly change their ways. It's all about profit.
I think part of the reason that people feel apathetic is that they know it's all about profit and are convinced that a system based on profit is the only way, so there's nothing to be done. Another way is possible, though, people just need to be organised and educated§ to achieve it.
§ I mean working-class education, not e.g. going to college/university.
I didn't realise how bad laptops had got until I had to repair one for my uncle a few years ago.
I'd always known laptops to be pretty good. Panels underneath for access to RAM and HDD (the most common things to need replacing), and a removable battery.
This thing was glued shut. I did manage to get it open and replace the drive with an SSD, but it was clearly designed to be thrown away once anything went wrong with it. Getting it back together again meant the trackpad didn't work reliably any more, but what can you do?
Anyway, I digress. I fear that real change means a drop in living standards for many. It's unpalatable to the career politicians whose only real motivation to do anything is to get re-elected every 4-5 years, and maybe line their own pockets courtesy of corporate donors.
Reminds me of this article: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stopped-buying-new-laptops.html
Actions that work in the possible world in which it collapses soon are actively harmful in possible worlds in which it doesn't. Acting as if a threat will happen only makes sense if the action isn't significantly harmful in cases where it doesn't, where significantly is based on the harm of not being prepared and the chance of it happening.
If the Gulf Stream will collapse by 2025, the response isn't to be more eco-friendly. In fact, it's the opposite. Everyone in the north should prepare to burn a lot more fuel, and concern for global warming would definitely be reduced. Global warming is something you can only afford to give a shit about when temperatures haven't just dropped by 3.5C and you haven't just lost 78% of your arable land (UK figures, because that's where I live).
Do you mean that people need to see how their life will get worse before they will be willing to act? That sounds a little accelerationist to me. But I'm not entirely sure of your argument. You seem to be saying that people would not be worried if they lost 4/5ths of their arable land, but I think I must be misunderstanding something.
(I think it's s tributary to the Gulf Stream that is at risk of collapsing, not the Gulf Stream itself, which, I'm told, is based on the earth's rotation rather than climate.)
You are. People would be very worried. It's just that their worry would not be expressed in attempts to improve things in the long-term when there's a short-term disaster.
If the Gulf Stream will definitely collapse in 2025 (which is not what the study says), then that's too soon to do anything about, so the priority is surviving it rather than preventing it. Fundamentally, things that help prevent disaster are not the same as things that help survive it.
I see, yes, that makes more sense: if conditions get that bad that quickly, it won't be a question of preventing worse change, it'll be figuring out how to survive day-to-day.
Well, all their predictions were wrong so far
Your right, they said we had way longer before the climate would start collapsing, they should have warned us HARDER
We should have been dead by now, 20 times, according to the scientists
What is your honest opinion - do you think the climate is not warming due to increased CO2 that humans are releasing into the atmosphere?
I think yes, but there's no accurate model on how much exactly the greenhouse gasses are affecting the average temperatures.
But if it's non-zero, shouldn't we be working to fix that problem regardless?
I suppose, but the urgency factor may be wildly different.
Citation?
https://thenewamerican.com/print/climate-alarmists-have-been-wrong-about-virtually-everything/
A scientific source. Not y'all'quida magazine...
Not exactly a news source known for it's unbiased and trustworthy reporting.
Even if it were credible, the article is almost 10 years old.
You need to do better than use a far-right organization's outlet. Go to the true scientists, not reporters with a political agenda.
Reputable sources such as NASA, the United Nations, and the National Geographic Society, which base their conclusions on scientific evidence and rigorous research are much more reliable.
It is understandable to feel unhappy with the current reality. However, ignoring the situation and trying to find evidence that it is not real will not benefit anyone. In fact, it may even cause harm. As the saying goes, it is better to be safe than sorry.
It is important to face the reality and take appropriate actions to improve the situation. How else will a difference ever be made?
Edit: I named American websites (apart from the UN), because I assume by your source that you are American. This is a global issue, though. European reputable institutions:
Okay, acknowledged
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-new-american/
No thanks. Considering they don't support the consensus on climate change and are a far right, anti-government, anti-immigration group. I doubt their articles on climate change are factually sound. So miss us with your bullshit.
I wouldn't dismiss an article just because a fact check website down rates it.
In this instance, though, it's not far off. "The famous scientists at the Newsweek lab got things wrong a few decades ago, so all scientists today must be wrong."
They are not far right, just right. And very credible. I'll look for another source I guess.
"And very credible." Lol. These are opinion pieces you are linking to. Let us know when you have a scientific article (ie Science, PNAS, Nature) to support your climate denial.
I would never deny the existence of the climate.
So deflection is your response to looking like a fool. You should go back to your echo chamber. 
"Just right" is no more credible than "far right." Right-wing politics is a pack of lies and absolutely nothing else.
Ring wing news sources actually value the truth, unlike establishment and left wing news sources.
Right-wing ideology only exists to protect power and privilege, Clyde - it exists to hide the truth and nothing else.
But hey... maybe all that ivermectin you've been drinking will actually start working one of these days instead of slowly killing you, eh?
Hey, ivermectin worked for Rogan. And as a right wing unvaccinated gigachad I certainly don't need it. Got through 4 COVID infections with just basic flu medicine.
And brain damage worked for Jordan Peterson - will you be having a go at that next?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-new-american/
That article was the epitome of the old saying "figures don't lie, but liars can figure". They cherry picked studies and statistics to support the conclusion they wanted to reach, absolute garbage "science".
Journalistic sealioning, that.
Well yes we keep finding it's getting worse quicker than anticipated