Do any of them know what the word "liberal" actually means?
this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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to be fair, the word "liberal" has lost its meaning in the US, because there no differentiation between economic liberalism and social liberalism. the guy in the meme would be a classic socialist in europe. we do have liberals here too, but they are the economic liberalism-type and more in line with the US-Republicans in economic questions, like tax cuts for the rich and businesses.
It's as meaningless as any words that hang on the notion that there's a "spectrum".
You either you accept what works and fosters human well being and liberty, adjusting your politics accordingly to reality as we learn more about the world, or you're conservative, a fundementally irrational denial of reality.
This is why seemingly different groups like Marxists and neo-nazis end up at the same place ultimately; they're unwilling to give up on failed ideas. It doesn't matter what label one applies, if you're still trying failed ideas after they've produced untold amounts of harm then you're just on one road to fascism or another.
It's a binary, not a spectrum.
Lol thats great, i came under a "biden bad"-post just a few hours ago to the same conclusion. the best friend of a left-authoritarian isn't anyone on the left wing, its an right-authoritarian.
i'm a socialist with anarchism as an ideal in some aspects, and for quite a while i couldn't understand why anyone on the left side of the spectrum would actively lobby against biden in the upcoming election until i realized that.
Biden literally supports genocide, so it is reasonable for people to not want to support him even if it comes at a cost to themselves. If you're unable to understand that, even if you disagree, I very much doubt you are aligned with the kind of goals you purport.
You clearly don’t understand that America as an institution has supported genocide your entire life and longer, it’s just more in your face right now than it’s ever been, Biden may support genocide but so did Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Ike, Truman, FDR, Hoover, and on back. This isn’t new shit and yes we desperately need better, but the genocide of the people you are arguing for will continue either way, but it will be faster with Trump. If you feel this strongly about stoping the US support of genocide regardless of who is president, I suggest you look into direct action, if you don’t have the backbone for that shut the fuck up.
Your vote isn’t a declaration of loyalty, love, support, or condoning. It never has been in this country, what it is is a small expression of which of the two directions presented to you is preferable. In this iteration we are presented with the maintenance of the status quo, which is fucking so stupid and I in every other circumstance would fight tooth and nail against it, but the other option is authoritarian christofascism which will culminate in at the very minimum of a constitutional crisis when blue states refuse to enforce the Gilead bullshit while thousands are murdered in red states. You want to stop genocide in Gaza? Me too, it’s gonna be hard to do that when there’s a cleansing happening in the US.
It’s a fucked up system, I hate it too, but again the only other option than these two ancient assholes is direct action and that has a lot of other consequences even if they are worth it in the long run
So I'm going to just tell you this; what you're doing above is not convincing anyone.
Given that factual reality, you then have to ask yourself, as someone who probably likes to believe that you're pragmatic and worldly; if your strategy for convincing millions of voters to support Democrats inspite of their increasingly fascist, right-wing tendencies is not working, what are your other practical options for actually helping Biden win.
And remember, this might involve changing your politics, or getting off the fence and actually doing something etc.
In any case, it's a rhetorical question, since I'll be blocking you. Think about it though, think about 2016 and how badly your political strategy failed this country then. Consider changing.
Leftists literally threatening the country with a fascist takeover if Dems don't bow to their impossible demands.
We're not trying to win your vote. We're trying to stop you from infecting more undecideds. You people are rotten and need to be cut out of the process before you kill us all.
What? Biden is the one playing chicken with our democracy, all he has to do is not give the middle finger to people who want him to stop funding a genocide. It's not like anyone is even expecting him to fight for healthcare or climate change or anything, literally just the very bare minimum of not sending money and arms to kill children and people would stomach voting for him. But no, you won't even compromise on that.
You honestly sound like you don't actually believe in the democratic process at all "Vote how I want you to or you don't deserve a vote."
No wonder you guys and the Republicans go together like hand and glove.
Gaslight <---- you are here
Obstruct
Project
Lol
There's a huge differentiation between social and economic liberalism! Liberals in the US means almost exclusively social liberalism. Liberal in the us is progressivism.
Economic liberalism is a Republican position, not a Democrat one.
@[email protected] I promise this is the last one, I've made my point
You've made it clear that you believe words do not have meanings, and are just vibes, yes.
300 million people having the same vibe
9 billion having the same vibe as me.
Multiple definitions of words can exist. When 300 million people agree on a definition, that's a valid definition.
Also, the RIDICULOUS ARROGANCE of Europeans never fails to astound me. 9 billion people? You really do think you represent the whole world lol. News flash, the colonial era is over, you lost your empires. Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.
I'm not a European, lol. The entire world and the entirety of academia understands Liberalism the way most people on Lwmmy use it, ie to refer to a pro-Capitalist ideology.
That makes it even more sad you're simping for a colonialist view
Are you saying the US isn't a colonialist project?
Not really on a scale comparable to Europe, no.
Damn, guess the Indigenous peoples were so thoroughly eliminated you forgot about them.
Yeah it was more genocidal than colonial
It was literally founded on settler-colonialism. Just because this resulted in such a profound and extensive destruction of countless peoples that are nearly wiped out today doesn't make it less colonial.
That's not colonialism. It didn't involve any colonies.
There were many colonies, lol. There was also Settler-Colonialism. Read about US history some time.
Yeah, and of the actual colonies America had, they were a tiny size/number compared to European ones. All of India, most of China, all of South America lol
I never said European countries were not colonizers, all I stated was that the US is a genocidal settler-colonial state and you can only do whataboutisms.
I said,
And I'm the one who said the US was genocidal, not you. Don't steal my woke-points, win your own fair and square.
You don't get woke points, you're a conservative, lol.
I'm a progressive, not that the distinction matters to you. You see everyone right of Lenin as a conservative.
Nah, you're directly concerned with attacking leftists and redefining words. Any anti-leftist can be considered a reactionary, but that word might not make sense to you.
Being anti-leftist =/= being reactionary
I understand we define them differently, but do you fundamentally disagree with the spectrum of "Leftist (revolutionary) -- Progressive -- Conservative -- Reactionary" ?
Yes, I fundamentally disagree with that.
Rejecting Socialism and the progression towards Worker Ownership is Reactionary behavior. You identify as a progressive, but you oppose all Socialism, and support Liberal Capitalism with robust social safety nets (unless you've pivoted).
You are therefore a reactionary.
How would you distinguish between Manchin Democrats, McCain Republicans, and MAGAs? I would call the former two "conservative" and the latter "reactionary", but if you consider all of them to be reactionary, what labels would you use to differentiate them?
They are indeed all reactionary, though I would use Liberal and Fascist. All 3 are conservative liberals, and all 3 reject leftist movement, but MAGA in particular is a fascist movement.
Ok that makes sense. So Elizabeth Warren vs Joe Biden vs Joe Manchin? Any differences there?
Minor. All 3 are liberals and all 3 are reactionary. Getting into the weeds for specifics won't really change their overall labels.
They all support "current system + minor tweaks," and the "current system" part does heavier lifting than "minor tweaks."
Is there anyone who is neither a leftist nor a reactionary? Or do you think everyone has to be either for worker ownership (leftist) or against it (reactionary)?
It's a spectrum, unintentional anti-leftism due to a lack of information isn't as reactionary as fascism, but both are reactionary.
Generally, you either support moving on to the next mode of production, or you reject that movement.
Got it. I still reject your central premise of hard labels regardless of real-world context, but everything you're saying makes sense and is internally consistent within that premise.
We disagree on a ton, but I don't believe either of us have been internally inconsistent.